Confused about Diacetyl? You should be - read now

[Itshak]

i Absolutely agree with you but this will come at a cost which is a limitation (pending any developmenets in flavour technology) in the flavours available. Fact is these things make particular types of juice what they are. Take them away and the juice will not work. I dont vape juices (custards etc) that 'need' DA etc to work but many do..everything has its price!

Yap there may a cost in the short run,
Thoug I was wandering if this cost may not be a better consider the alternatives??

Such as providing the ground to many "string pullers" to turn this way of life to witch hunting
As some do try.

I said I'm not too weary of those harms myself (for the present time) but in the long run I wish for us all not to live like today smokers: You know vaping in stealth and feeling that others see us in a wrong light.
Also there is the run for more life to save which is of the most important
Issue.

Still many smokers don't come to vaping becouase of part propaganda part no advertisements
supported the authorities part becouse it's really hard to stop and etc.

I agree that there may be some shorts of Flavors but the more I think of it,it Look the better path to choose.

It's not total black or white just the way I see as it's stands now

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Yap there may a cost in the short run,
Thoug I was wandering if this cost may not be a better consider the alternatives??

Such as providing the ground to many "string pullers" to turn this way of life to witch hunting
As some do try.

I said I'm not too weary of those harms myself (for the present time) but in the long run I wish for us all not to live like today smokers: You know vaping in stealth and feeling that others see us in a wrong light.
Also there is the run for more life to save which is of the most important
Issue.

Still many smokers don't come to vaping becouase of part propaganda part no advertisements
supported the authorities part becouse it's really hard to stop and etc.

I agree that there may be some shorts of Flavors but the more I think of it,it Look the better path to choose.

It's not total black or white just the way I see as it's stands now

Shalom @Itshak , manishma?!

I think I get your point here and I agree. There is a choice and let people make it. If sellers are throwing DA/AP etc in their juices let us know and we can make the choice - there are plenty of alternatives right!! So much to chosse from in fact. Its fantastic. Lets choose the ones that we think are best for us! And give us the info so we can make an informed decision!

steve

 

[corn flakes]

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Thank you for posting this - good on Joe and ECF for steeping up to the plate and educating the wider community on the issues that swirl around the debate. This is a young industry - the structure is being built. It's an exciting time for vaping - I am very optimistic.

 

[Itshak]

Shalom @Itshak , manishma?!

I think I get your point here and I agree. There is a choice and let people make it. If sellers are throwing DA/AP etc in their juices let us know and we can make the choice - there are plenty of alternatives right!! So much to chosse from in fact. Its fantastic. Lets choose the ones that we think are best for us! And give us the info so we can make an informed decision!

steve

Shalom Vebracha Steve Gam Lecha Hakol Beseder
That's a pleasant one as it's get

 

[motordude]

I greatly enjoyed reading about the history of this topic. Hopefully we can move forward as a community to address this issue.

 

[sunnata]

many thanks for the article, I enjoyed it a lot. It answered many questions I had on the issue.

 

[thailand]

Great article.
Its a must read, if you ask me. Thanks for posting it.

 

[WindyCityJoe]

Thanks for your excellent work @SmokeyJoe, it is a confusing subject to say the least. I do feel that I have a better understanding of the potential risks involved with my favorite vape, not the outcome I was hoping for but at least I'm better informed now and for myself will try to find safer alternatives. I do hope ejuice companies will take a proactive approach and at least make vapers aware of what is really in their juices so we can decide if we want to gamble with uncertainty.

 

[Caterpiller]

Thank you for the article it was very useful.

I'll watch the video when I have more time. So I'm sorry if my next comments/questions were covered in the video, but it's 02:30 here and I've got a flight to catch in the morning.

My main ongoing concern, is in being unable to fully quantify the risks.

Intuitively it seems that cutting out 4000 bad chemicals, when smoking anologs, and being left with just one or two (DA and AP) should be a risk reduction exercise.

But not if the one or two bad chemicals have a very high likelihood to do massive damage to my lungs.

I appreciate this is still unknown.

But from my perspective, having only been vaping for 3 months, and having consumed at least twelve 30ml bottles of what I uneducatedly thought was a safe premium liquid, Five Pawns Castle Long. I'm hugely disappointed in the current state of play.

I now believe I understand that the 2000 ppm of DA that Cloud 9 discovered in my ADV is probably 10 to 50 times higher than the levels I might have been receiving from anologs.

I'm far from confident at this point that vaping my ADV is safer than smoking anologs.

Yes there are less bad chemicals, but if the one bad chemical is 90% likely to give me popcorn lung in the next 10 years, then anologs would seem safer.

I'm not saying the risk is at 90%, I'm saying I don't know, but it doesn't look good.

Fortunately I can and will choose to vape only juices without DA and AP, but it's going to be quite a challenge.

PG, VG and nic base are not readily available here. The vape stores here carry a very limited range of juice, from a limited range of manufacturers, and I have no way of telling if they contain diketones - only a very small number of these juices appear on the Vapor Shark list.

I'm taking this seriously, I tried to order 10 diketone free bottles from the Vapor Shark website today, and was delighted to find they will deliver to Malaysia (still some concerns about the delivery getting through customs), for a price.

Only to find the only payment method they would accept was bitcoin!

I tried for an hour to set up a bitcoin wallet and get it funded with my credit card, but perhaps I'm to old to get it. I gave up.

The outlook for juice purchases for the medium term is a complete PITA, but I feel there is enough information to say that diketones are currently above my personal risk tolerance.

 

[Jazzman]

I'd like to see ejuice labeling show a bit more than just exclusion/inclusion of DA. I would like to see some standards set and something like noDA/lowDA/moderateDA/ highDA. Or something along those lines. I realize it would take more research to establish some basic standards, but I can't see that being a large deterrent to a more reasonable approach to allowing freedom of risk choice for consumers.

When I shop for foods I look at labels for items like fat, calories, sugar, carbs, sodium, etc. and make an informed decision about the risk level of the products I buy. It doesn't keep me from buying whatever I choose, it just allows me to determine acceptable risk for myself and my family. Nothing new here, just another step towards allowing the consumer to make informed decisions without blanket regulation that would likely do more harm than good.

Just a thought, and great article @SmokeyJoe

 

[man00ver]

Very well done, and thank you. A couple things stood out to me while reading your article, and I'll post a pair of suggestions for your consideration.

1. "Ironically, the only other known causes of Bronchiolitis Obliterans is lung transplants themselves."

-- This statement seems a bit strong and not entirely accurate. DA/AP are not quite "known causes" of BO, as even Dr. Anne Hubbs concludes in her presentation summary, stating, "Airway epithelial damage is believed to be the underlying lesion for bronchiolitis obliterans in humans (emphasis added)." Other household chemicals, such as ammonia, produce similar airway irritation, and though we wouldn't choose to vape them, they would be in the same category as DA/AP. Also, it's not correct to say that lung transplants cause BO; it's an autoimmune issue in the transplant population. I get what you're saying, but it's just a bit off key to me.

2. "(although see Dr Polosa on emerging evidence regarding lung health in vapers)"

-- In the interest of balance, you should link this study, or at least characterize its conclusions. It's important information for people who are disturbed by all the discussion.

 

[Nick L]

Very informative article.... thanks for posting!

 

[suprtrkr]

Thanks, Joe. Well done.

 

[Froth]

Excellent read, linked several friends to it as well. Great stuff!

 

[BallSweater]

Good read thanks for this.

 

[blisscloud]

Thanks so much for the well-written article, Smokey Joe!!
Yes, consumers need to be able to make their informed choice according to e-liquid's label. As a consumer myself, I would prefer to see e-liquid manufacturers can be more self-regulated and clearly listing followings:

• Manufactured Date
  
• Exp Date
• PG/VG ratios
  
• Nicotine Strength
  
• % of Pentanedione (Acetylpropinyl)
• % of Butanedione (Diacetyl)

 

[Infernal2]

It was an excellent article and I appreciate you writing it.

 

[Bootiewootsy]

Excellent reading and information. Thank you ...

 

[VictorViper]

I have nothing to add beyond a big THANK YOU to @SmokeyJoe for this concise and balanced post.