Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.

[rurwin]

There is not yet sufficient science to assure "Safe", but there is enough to at least improve on "safer"

The latest study I saw is that they got together a large number of doctors and/or scientists and locked them in a room until they came up with a percentage risk for various forms of drugs. That is a surprisingly accurate method even though there is no real evidence, but it's informed guesswork of course.

e-cigarettes came out with a 4% risk, of which around half was due to the perceived dangers of being addicted to something.
I'm happy enough being dependent on nicotine, so there's 2% I need not worry about. (And even that is contended.)

The thing is, there is no known risk to vaping. We always say it is safer than smoking, not risk free, but those risks are unknowns; there may be damage we are doing to our lungs or some other organ that will only become apparent decades down the line. But with what we know now, it is perfectly possible that there is no such damage, that we could vape like a steam train for a century without hurting ourselves.

There is DA/AP in cigarettes, but smoking is already dangerous. If DA/AP kills 1% of its users, then that is a tiny added risk considering that smoking as a whole kills 50% of its users. If it eventually emerged that vaping kills 1%, then I imagine that many of us would accept the damage we are doing to ourselves; we are well aware that this activity, while almost certainly safer than smoking, is not proven to be risk-free. But it may be entirely safe.

Which is why DA/AP is so important. It is a risk that is not necessary against a possible background risk of 0%. The more research that is done and the quicker the industry acts to contain such discovered dangers, the more likely we are to be able to continue to enjoy this hobby entirely safely.

 

[SeniorBoy]

So it's a new day and Godfather SJ has spoken. Nice work young man

QUESTION for the Tribe: I have a full 30 ML bottle of Perpetual Check from 5P. Lot number 026, bottle number 195, 6MG, 50/50, and dated 5/1/14. I broke the seal for a 30 second breathing spell and then sealed. I purchased this juice in 9/14. The 5 Pawns Lab report says this juice's Diacetyl (μg/ml) content is 130.8. That value is significantly higher than I wish to vape. That's my decision please and should not be inferred that it should be your decision.

/wew/ If I decide to either sell it or PIF it on ECF, should I include in my ECF post the 5P lab report along with my own carefully and respectfully crafted warning?

What an interesting dilemma for me with numerous other implications which I will leave for you to discuss.

 

[ReacT]

To people who say traditional cigs have Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl and asking why nobody get popcorn lung from cigs until now. The answer is so simple, when you smoke cigs, DA and AP gets burned about 1.000 celcius. At that high heat, DA and AP loses their harmfull chemical functions before they reach to lungs. But when these chemicals are in ecig, things are changed. There is no burn in ecig and their harmfull chemical functions stay un-damaged due to low heat which can cause popcorn lung in the future. Nobody knows if surely it can or not. But there are cases already recorded, there are people who get popcorn lung because of exposure to Diacetyl too much in the past, although they were eating diacetyl not vaping. I cannot guess what will happen if we continue to vape it into our lungs, as it causes a deadly lung sickness by eating it too much. I guess vaping it, will speed up the process.

One thing about vaping always scares me, when you vape food flavors they go into your lungs and goes into your blood stream in few seconds. But when you eat food flavors, they go into your digestive system and there it gets attacked by acids and enzymes which kills the harmfull chemical functions of food flavors before they go into blood stream. What I'm saying is, it is not only Diacetyl and AP, one flavor has at least 6 - 8 chemicals, nobody knows what will do other chemicals yet, we only know about Diacetyl and AP today.

Many flavor companies are already released their, v2 and DX version flavors. It is possible to make completely Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl free liquids today. A reputable liquid company should re-formule their liquids instead of showing 2014 self made lab tests and saying look our diacetyl and AP ratio is lower than cloud9 tests.

 

[Taaja]

This handy poster tells you everything you need to know in an easily digestible form: http://gfn.net.co/downloads/2014/posters/122 Farsalinos - DA_AP.pdf

Thanks for the chart, I didn't realize there were so many companies using these ingredients. I have ordered some "concentrate" to DIY at home and it makes me wonder now just what's in it! LOL! I hope my KILLER KUSTARD by Vapetasia has been checked, it's the best I have tasted.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Oh, were it that I was in your position! It would cause me SO much joy.

I would NOT Pif or sell it. I would do what I would consider not only the RIGHT thing, but THE MOST proactive thing. I would contact 5 Pawns, or the retailer that you purchased it from. I would tell them that it was sold to you under FALSE PRETENSES, and I would ask for a REFUND! Or at least, in the case of a retailer, a store credit.

Until now, I could only hope that they would see a MAJOR ding in their sales. But the prospect of a bunch of product already sold coming BACK TO THEM? Be still my beating heart!

I truly would love to see this vendor go DOWN. For those manufacturers who lack the MORAL compass to do what is right, it would be a good reference of the financial reasons to do so.

 

[Mazinny]

Thanks for the chart, I didn't realize there were so many companies using these ingredients. I have ordered some "concentrate" to DIY at home and it makes me wonder now just what's in it! LOL! I hope my KILLER KUSTARD by Vapetasia has been checked, it's the best I have tasted.

The only way you would find out is by contacting them and asking for the lab certificate. The stock answer based on my experience with vendors is something like " We've been assured by our flavor suppliers that it contains no diacetyl etc ..." . Not good enough.

 

[440BB]

So it's a new day and Godfather SJ has spoken. Nice work young man

QUESTION for the Tribe: I have a full 30 ML bottle of Perpetual Check from 5P. Lot number 026, bottle number 195, 6MG, 50/50, and dated 5/1/14. I broke the seal for a 30 second breathing spell and then sealed. I purchased this juice in 9/14. The 5 Pawns Lab report says this juice's Diacetyl (μg/ml) content is 130.8. That value is significantly higher than I wish to vape. That's my decision please and should not be inferred that it should be your decision.

/wew/ If I decide to either sell it or PIF it on ECF, should I include in my ECF post the 5P lab report along with my own carefully and respectfully crafted warning?

What an interesting dilemma for me with numerous other implications which I will leave for you to discuss.

One other option you have is to continue enjoying it by puffing instead of inhaling. That may not be workable if you only use big airflow setups, but can be pretty tasty and satisfying without much inhalation, like an after dinner cigar or pipe. I will continue to enjoy some liquids this way, and pending better information, will be puffing on that Killer Kustard in a couple minutes, as it is just so damn good.

 

[zoiDman]

So it's a new day and Godfather SJ has spoken. Nice work young man

QUESTION for the Tribe: I have a full 30 ML bottle of Perpetual Check from 5P. Lot number 026, bottle number 195, 6MG, 50/50, and dated 5/1/14. I broke the seal for a 30 second breathing spell and then sealed. I purchased this juice in 9/14. The 5 Pawns Lab report says this juice's Diacetyl (μg/ml) content is 130.8. That value is significantly higher than I wish to vape. That's my decision please and should not be inferred that it should be your decision.

/wew/ If I decide to either sell it or PIF it on ECF, should I include in my ECF post the 5P lab report along with my own carefully and respectfully crafted warning?

What an interesting dilemma for me with numerous other implications which I will leave for you to discuss.

I wouldn't pour it down the Drain. And I wouldn't PIF it even with a DA Disclosure.

I would do what Another member suggested. And that is Contact the Retailer you purchased it from and Request a Refund because you bought it believing that it was Supposed to be DA and AP Free.

 

[rurwin]

So it's a new day and Godfather SJ has spoken. Nice work young man

QUESTION for the Tribe: I have a full 30 ML bottle of Perpetual Check from 5P. Lot number 026, bottle number 195, 6MG, 50/50, and dated 5/1/14. I broke the seal for a 30 second breathing spell and then sealed. I purchased this juice in 9/14. The 5 Pawns Lab report says this juice's Diacetyl (μg/ml) content is 130.8. That value is significantly higher than I wish to vape. That's my decision please and should not be inferred that it should be your decision.

/wew/ If I decide to either sell it or PIF it on ECF, should I include in my ECF post the 5P lab report along with my own carefully and respectfully crafted warning?

What an interesting dilemma for me with numerous other implications which I will leave for you to discuss.

If you are not interested in chasing the supplier and not bothered about getting a return on your money, then vape it by all means. It isn't thought to be dangerous if consumed at a low enough dose.

Given that the only guaranteed safe dose is zero, the NIOSH level is equivalent to 40ug/ml consumed at a rate of 3ml per day. (I assume you meant AP, not DA.) Your liquid is 134ug/ml, so you need to consume less than 1ml per day and you would be as safe as you expect to be. The NIOSH limit is designed to reduce the risk to one case in a thousand individuals and assumes the AP is in air and breathed for 40hrs a week. It's a few parts per billion in room air. The 40ug/ml figure is produced by assuming the same damage is done by the same amount of AP, calculating the amount that would be breathed in at the limit in 40 hours, and calculating the concentration that would have to be in e-liquid that was used at a rate of 3ml per day for the same amount to be consumed. There is some question as to whether the risks are equivalent, but it's the only standard we have.

Given that, using the liquid as an occasional treat, for example to relax after dinner, would, so far as we know, cause negligible risk of disease. In fact, given that the action of DA/AP seems to be cumulative over a lifetime exposure and in proportion to the total amount consumed, vaping one bottle is, in my layman's opinion, highly unlikely to cause you any measurable harm.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Another article on the 5 pawns results:

DA and AP in E-Liquid: Five Pawns, the Reliability of Results and the Worst Offenders to Date -

 

[SeniorBoy]

Oh, were it that I was in your position! It would cause me SO much joy.

I would NOT Pif or sell it. I would do what I would consider not only the RIGHT thing, but THE MOST proactive thing. I would contact 5 Pawns, or the retailer that you purchased it from. I would tell them that it was sold to you under FALSE PRETENSES, and I would ask for a REFUND! Or at least, in the case of a retailer, a store credit.

Until now, I could only hope that they would see a MAJOR ding in their sales. But the prospect of a bunch of product already sold coming BACK TO THEM? Be still my beating heart!

I truly would love to see this vendor go DOWN. For those manufacturers who lack the MORAL compass to do what is right, it would be a good reference of the financial reasons to do so.

One other option you have is to continue enjoying it by puffing instead of inhaling. That may not be workable if you only use big airflow setups, but can be pretty tasty and satisfying without much inhalation, like an after dinner cigar or pipe. I will continue to enjoy some liquids this way, and pending better information, will be puffing on that Killer Kustard in a couple minutes, as it is just so damn good.

I wouldn't pour it down the Drain. And I wouldn't PIF it even with a DA Disclosure.

I would do what Another member suggested. And that is Contact the Retailer you purchased it from and Request a Refund because you bought it believing that it was Supposed to be DA and AP Free.

If you are not interested in chasing the supplier and not bothered about getting a return on your money, then vape it by all means. It isn't thought to be dangerous if consumed at a low enough dose.

Given that the only guaranteed safe dose is zero, the NIOSH level is equivalent to 40ug/ml consumed at a rate of 3ml per day. (I assume you meant AP, not DA.) Your liquid is 134ug/ml, so you need to consume less than 1ml per day and you would be as safe as you expect to be. The NIOSH limit is designed to reduce the risk to one case in a thousand individuals and assumes the AP is in air and breathed for 40hrs a week. It's a few parts per billion in room air. The 40ug/ml figure is produced by assuming the same damage is done by the same amount of AP, calculating the amount that would be breathed in at the limit in 40 hours, and calculating the concentration that would have to be in e-liquid that was used at a rate of 3ml per day for the same amount to be consumed. There is some question as to whether the risks are equivalent, but it's the only standard we have.

Given that, using the liquid as an occasional treat, for example to relax after dinner, would, so far as we know, cause negligible risk of disease. In fact, given that the action of DA/AP seems to be cumulative over a lifetime exposure and in proportion to the total amount consumed, vaping one bottle is, in my layman's opinion, highly unlikely to cause you any measurable harm.

Thanks ALL for the input. Even a little Shakesperain talk! NICE! So far, I have decided NOT to either PIF or sell my DA by 5P juice...ups I mean Perpetual Check by 5P. A sale or PIF would be contrary to my moral and ethical compass. For any price. Period! Next stop is my local B & M. I may need to be a little circumspect in future posts because "they" are watching!

A screen Capture from the 5P test results/link In my previous post:

 

[rurwin]

A screen Capture from the 5P test results/link In my previous post:

I stand corrected; I didn't remember the 5P results as showing any DA.
That's even better: the NIOSH DA limit is equivalent to 60ug/ml given 3ml/day. So 131 is under the limit for just under 1.5ml/day.

 

[BigEgo]

Maybe this might make some sense as it was posted in a mod forum.

An Open Letter to The Ecig Industry Regarding Accusations

Though I am Co-President of Southern California SFATA I would like to make very clear that I am writing this letter as an attorney, consultant and investment banker.

I have quietly watched the vapor industry (and in some cases consumers) for the past few months publicly hurl accusations against other companies, particularly on social media forums. These accusations seem to come in three primary forms; alleged marketing to children, bad test results for diacetyl and other “hazardous” substances and intellectual property violations.

I am requesting that those who claim they are taking these actions “for the benefit of the industry” actually think about what they are doing here. In an environment of deep hostility and in light of active attempts to shut the industry down, the result is that we are providing our opponents and challengers with the very ammunition they need to ensure this industry is regulated to death. Public shaming and witch-hunts, many of which may be without basis, will ensure that public’s perception of us remains tarnished.

The FDA is going to regulate e-cigs regardless of what we say and they have had the whole diacetyl issue on their radar for years. Various scientists back in March at the FDA workshop further elaborated on the harms of DA/AP and I can assure you those talks didn't fall on deaf ears. The FDA is, without a doubt, going to mandate that all eliquids be diketone free. This is a problem the industry has known about for five years and there is no excuse for an outfit as large and profitable as Five Pawns not to be aware of it and not to work to ameliorate the issue. The fact that they haven't proves they put profit over safety and suggests they need nanny to step in and do it for them. Not only have they not cleaned it up, but they (along with other companies like Suicide Bunny) have flat out lied to consumers about it.

Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information. The industry as a whole must become more professional handling these situations. Posting accusations in public without a full investigation, is both foolhardy and mimics the actions of our opponents.

The investigation was complete as soon as Five Pawns released their own test results showing high levels of DA/AP. Results that they had for almost a year all the while telling customers their liquids were clean.

I am suggesting that if anyone ever believes another company has done something in error, it would be mature and professional to contact them discretely and privately. Have a conversation with them. Don’t broadcast the results publicly for the world to see before a full respectful discussion has occurred and where appropriate, a detailed investigation has been carried out.

Sorry, but companies that lie to their customers are no better than Big Tobacco and deserve to be called out. I don't give a damn how it makes the industry look. Being ignorant of a risk is one thing, but large companies like Five Pawns have zero excuse for A) not being aware of the DA/AP issue, B) refusing to do anything about it, and C) lying to their customers.

 

[Rossum]

The FDA is, without a doubt, going to mandate that all eliquids be diketone free.

Is this speculation on your part, or do you have some inside information?

 

[AstroTurf]

Cloud9vaping also had some liquids tested and it doesn't look good

Happy 4th of July Lem!!!

Heres how I'm celebrating... Care to join me?!?

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[AstroTurf]

Here's another titbit of info. Cloud9 says they notified FP of the results on may the 5th.

But, Cloud9 Continues to sell it for another month after knowing... Way to go Cloud9!!!


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[AstroTurf]

But they cost so much because, they make the best e-juices from the most quality ingredients.

I think they are!!!


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[zoiDman]

Is this speculation on your part, or do you have some inside information?

 

[Mr.Mann]

I just wanted to say that after all of this, I don't now somehow dislike the couple 5P liquids I did previously like. My thing is this:

Since they (5P) like to proclaim and tout how professional they are, what perfectionist they are and how industry-leading they are (and they surely do love to make those claims), they could have---by way of example, and in a very visible way---lead the eliquid industry in a positive direction by either a) pulling the existing flavors and reformulating them to be as they said they were, b) reformulating those liquids to come as DA/AP free, but keeping the others available and offering customers the choice to pick, or c) came out immediately after getting their results---last year---and issued an apology for their oversight and a re-commitment to becoming who they thought themselves to have already been. And if they would've just done one of those three things, Cloud 9 would've never been in a position to do what they had to do---which is why we are here now.

Yes, the BIG thing here for me is that 5P was in the perfect position (for their size and popularity) to lead by example, but what they did was no different than many of those they purport themselves to be better than. And let the record show, 5P could've done what Steve at Mountain Oak Vapor did (a couple years ago) when he first learned of one of his flavorings having DA. He immediately owned up to it publicly and then pulled the flavoring and liquids that used it from his stock and then resourced/reforumlated. And the heat was not even on him! He did that on his own. So the message to 5Pawns is this: it's one thing to say you are a leader, it's another thing to actually be one.

 

[nancybout]

Crazy w the five pawns wow just wow!


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