These are the top twelve flavor manufacturers in the world :
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10
How many of them are known to even avid diy'ers ?
Confused about Diacetyl? You should be - read now
- Thread starter Oliver
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
These are the top twelve flavor manufacturers in the world :
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10
How many of them are known to even avid diy'ers ?
I've never heard of any of them!!
I also wonder how many of them would supply such a fledgling industry with apparently stricter requirements? None would be my guess.
I read somewhere Linc Williams, the owner of Nicvape say that these companies will not even deal with the re-distributors and compounders that cater to the vape industry. They abandoned the cigarette industry ( due to high insurance costs ) years ago, and they sure as hell won't deal with our industry which is miniscule compared to the cigarette industry.
Last edited:
Correct. But note, a flavor chemist (in the truest sense of the profession) would not be googling. And that is no knock on Linda, just distinguishing.
Last edited:
Exactly. Just like how you've likely never heard of the actual makers of the vast majority of eliquid that floods and pops up in our market everyday. The source-companies don't need to be known to regular consumers, just those that buy from them that are looking to build a brand that you will recognize.
Last edited:
And almost like with the white-lablelers, these companies aren't selling any kind of 3 mL, 1 oz or even 1L bottles for your own ventures. They don't even have shopping carts. Oh, no! They ain't 'bout the nickel and dime. B2B only, and even that's hardly a guarantee they would even do business with you.
Yes. Branding is really not a very personal thing after a certain point.
At any rate, this brings us back to DAP in eliquids. Like Dr. F. said, testing (the eliquid itself, i.e, the END PRODUCT) is the only way to know.
You have to test your eliquids that you have created, mixed and filled. Whether you did these things yourself or not. Because that is the product your customer is receiving. What is in the bottle.
Well, they probably saw the writing on the wall.....now that so many posts here have been about "holding the food flavoring manufacturers responsible.
(an absolutely absurd idea anyway, for anyone who knows about these things.) Again, testing the "final product" ----- the product the vaping customer RECEIVES, for DAP, will tell you what you need to know.
And why, a very smart person like Dr. Farsalinos, suggested that in the first darn place , while so many are still wasting their time pointing fingers north, south, east, west and everywhere in-between!
Do we really need to reinvent the wheel? (it does serve as a great STALLING TECHNIQUE, doesn't it though?)
I think there are enough guidelines already to know what levels are okay and what are not. Dr. F. feels zero DA/AP should be in elquids, but I think in order to satisfy and be lenient to some "sneaking in", we need to go by levels that have already been tossed around and which are at least, a PRUDENT starting point.
Starting point being the operative word. Not excuses. Not stalling. Not an endless round of "who's on base?" And poking at things with a stick like the cavemen did. We have enough information that this stuff is more than likely, an inhalation risk.
I applaud vendors that do that work. The ones that don't or simply don't know will either profit or fall depending on demand. IE - the way it works when gov't doesn't get involved.
YES. That's one reason I'm not going to be quick to throw a company under the bus if testing shows their product is off the chart or participate in blame games. The way I see it we are all in this together as pioneers. Figuring out this testing stuff is going to be extremely helpful in the future and manufacturers deserve a chance to respond. There's a chance that it's more than one fugitive element causing the problem and the solution is more like peeling the layers of an onion.
I seriously would like to see most juice manufacturers posting test results. They aren't going to if it causes too much of a publicity storm. If customers demand it, then it will happen. The fact that it's gotten this far is kudos to the industry.
The FDA won't do this. We'll know even less about what is used in eliquids if they are regulated to big tobacco. No one even knows how much tar and nic are in a cigarette now that the FDA is in control. I think the additive list was a requirement of the MSA in the 90's and that still hasn't happened (and I doubt it will).
There's been a number of things from Dr. F that I'm not in total agreement with (although I respect and support him). I don't think testing is currently able to produce standardized repeatable results to the degree that he and others seem to expect.
I don't think manufacturers are being malicious when they recieve one set of results and a third party gets something wildly different. The biggest problem is pretending like it doesn't matter when the response should be to investigate what's going on. This is an industry level problem which Dr. F did reveal. There is a trade organization that should be addressing these issues as well.
Not too low.. They just have to test that low from the start. Equipment set too high will show 0 AP
Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk
[emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106]
Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk
In my day job, one of our product lines is sold to businesses who make children's products. So CPSIA laws apply to them, not to us. But we are asked all the time about lead content, so we looked into it.
CPSIA requirements changed dramatically a few years ago, and now these items must test at below 100ppm for lead. That's a pretty low level - so low in fact, that the margin of error seems to be wider. One company that got its products tested complained... "Eight different CPSC-firewalled laboratories found the samples’ lead content to range between less than 50 ppm to 262 ppm"
I would bet that you could have juice tested at 10 different labs, and get 10 very different results.
I'm just pointing out - again - this may not be as black-and-white or as easy as some may think.
CPSIA requirements changed dramatically a few years ago, and now these items must test at below 100ppm for lead. That's a pretty low level - so low in fact, that the margin of error seems to be wider. One company that got its products tested complained... "Eight different CPSC-firewalled laboratories found the samples’ lead content to range between less than 50 ppm to 262 ppm"
I would bet that you could have juice tested at 10 different labs, and get 10 very different results.
I'm just pointing out - again - this may not be as black-and-white or as easy as some may think.
Found a good list of juices that vapor shark tested for da/ap posted on Scribd by Russ Wishtart:
VaporShark E-Liquid Testing
It will make you download the app to get past page three. Not sure how it will react on a PC/MAC. Interesting to see my Schwartz - Downside and Kilo - Cereal Milk are on there with some disappointingly high #'s. You can really see the types of liquids that are "enhanced" by this crap.
Thanks @SmokeyJoe for the OP. My eyes have been opened to this and will be a consideration in juice selection moving forward (dependent, of course, on if the test results can be found available). Juice makers should be required to test their juices and post results directly on the bottle or packaging/leaflet insert. Give us the choice, as the article mentions, as it may just help the next smoker to Vaper transition.
Hopefully some of the really good flavors using da/ap could figure out a safer way to make while still providing the same tasty results.
Also surprised at the Clouds of Hope line from Space Jam. All of the liquids, I think, had da/ap or both in them. Supporting some great causes while trying to stay off the lung darts, unaware of the exposure to high levels of harmful chemicals. They better create a juice in the line that supports bronchiolitis obliterans, and make it da/ap free!
VaporShark E-Liquid Testing
It will make you download the app to get past page three. Not sure how it will react on a PC/MAC. Interesting to see my Schwartz - Downside and Kilo - Cereal Milk are on there with some disappointingly high #'s. You can really see the types of liquids that are "enhanced" by this crap.
Thanks @SmokeyJoe for the OP. My eyes have been opened to this and will be a consideration in juice selection moving forward (dependent, of course, on if the test results can be found available). Juice makers should be required to test their juices and post results directly on the bottle or packaging/leaflet insert. Give us the choice, as the article mentions, as it may just help the next smoker to Vaper transition.
Hopefully some of the really good flavors using da/ap could figure out a safer way to make while still providing the same tasty results.
Also surprised at the Clouds of Hope line from Space Jam. All of the liquids, I think, had da/ap or both in them. Supporting some great causes while trying to stay off the lung darts, unaware of the exposure to high levels of harmful chemicals. They better create a juice in the line that supports bronchiolitis obliterans, and make it da/ap free!
HOw many of those do you think there are, Aikanae1? This isn't 2010 or 2011.
A lot of the ejuice companies that you think are little guys, well, they aren't. They are being made in large factories where the MOQ is 10,000 bottles. Just like the big chinese companies.
These places put your name and label on, and customize your juice. It's called a "turnkey" operation.
Want to see one? There are many others. Oftentimes, that juice you think you are getting from a "little company" is being filled by places like California Vapor. With the "little vendor's" name on it. Some people here seem totally unaware of how the ejuice environment is nowadays.
(check out the production line and tell me what you see........)
e Liquid Filling - California Vapor
All you do is either give them your recipe, OR, you can use one of theirs. In other words, if you use one of theirs, chances are your juice will be "the same" as 20 other companies.....just with YOUR label and juice name and you can name it whatever the heck you want.
Call a few of these companies, MOQ is in the many thousands of bottles. Since vaping became big, Ejuice companies are not poor. Most all can afford a $120 test.
Hey, this isn't a bad thing. It's nice to know things are being made in clean rooms and factory environments that look like hangsen in China, etc. But there are very few ejuice companies that are still "mom and pop" who can't afford $120 a bottle to test juiice. That's because people arent' mixing out in an add-on shed or in the backroom storage space.
Yes I am aware of the rebottling and rebranding industry. I wasn't aware that it was that widespread. If a local vape shop pulled a bottle off the shelf I'd say "BS" and walk away. Maybe I'm lucky but half the vape shops here do mix their own eliquids, in a back room. A couple do primarly eliquids and have a staff in a backroom mixing full time. If I want banana instead of coconut with my strawberry, I can get it. If I want 14mg instead of 12mg, I can get that too. Some feature employee mixes, sometimes customers come up with a mix they put on special. It's a sport. I must be living in a bubble to have at least 7-9 locations that do on-site, on-demand mixing in a town with less than 500k pop. I am not including a couple of eliquid manufacturers that mix at home and offer delivery (extremely popular locally).
Nearly every nic and bottle supplier is hooked up with a company that will assist in eliquid flavor development and production. Artwork, branding and marketing are add-ons. The number of eliquid companies is extreme, but the demand appears to support it.
I imagine a lot of those rebottled eliquids are the same ones that are continually on sale ($5.99 for 30ml or more). I think most premium juice manufacturers realize that people are always looking for a lower price "tastes like .... " to risk rebranding. But then the shopping mall kiosk selling ecigs wants $30 for a no-brand 650 ego.
A common metaphor, but I don't look at this as a 'problem'. It may be for individual vapors and they should do what is necessary to handle their problem. As with anything else really.
They most certainly would.
If that is the case, not saying it is, but if it is, then they might not speak in terms of possibilities, likeliness, and least of all - in terms of 'should' - unless it is aimed at consumers as far as friendly advice.
His study doesn't show that - it was a rather small sample and targeted only certain flavors - by his own admission. I don't even think Dr. F would make such a statement - although there is no doubt other have and will. Unwarranted imo.
I have reasons for making all those statements. There's been several discoveries where diketones "have been hiding" just within the last couple of years. It appears that certain nicotine extractions and filtering processes might be allowing precurssors of diacetyl through as well. Before that it was heat that made changes. There was a paper posted last week that the current replacement (starts with a B) might actually increase asorbtion rate of any diacetyl = no only not safer but may actually be worse. And then there's the debate over particles sizes, what sizes go where. Or the article in Medscape discussing if OB is accurately dx'd, how often and what changes are actually made in the lungs by diacetyl or is it something else (that's not even conclusive).
Then take a look at the example above about lead in children's clothing. The more specific a test is required can lead to more error. I ran into something like this with pcr testing with exotic birds many years ago. The testing processes were propietary and patented. The results were wildly different between labs and it was a mess until enough results were in, repeated, that the community could figure out which labs were able to be the most accurate at the level required (since it wasn't the norm). Although those examples aren't related, the fact that vapers are expecting more sensitive testing than the industry traditionally requires might be a factor.
Of course I don't know if that's what is going on. I think it's premature to point fingers at testing, lab, manufacturer, supplier and there could be a combination of things.
I think AEMSA should be involved because if there are standards that need to be established, they are the organization to do it.
The FDA does not do this stuff. There's tons of flavors already approved for inhilation, technically, because the FDA accepted tobacco industries word they were safe - specifically for inhilation. Vanilla, carmel and a host of others I found listed in the MSA archives, along with the listing of cigarette ingredients. A person would have to know the chemical compounds to fish them out of the list.
FEMA is used for food safe flavors, the FDA doesn't require them to "prove" anything. That's the way it's done, deflect to trade organizations to set standards. That's the way it should work with the vaping industry if the FDA treated this industry like others. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/me...-flavors-are-‘natural’/ar-BBkRngL?ocid=LENDHP
FEMA has recently updated their comments about flavoring industries working with ecig industry. GRAS does not mean safe to vape. I tried to hunt down their previous statement because I thought it was much more strongly worded and they implied they (FEMA) were the authority (a gov't agency). FEMA would send these letters out to flavoring manufacturers during the year and several eliquid companies have reported being dropped because of the FEMA letters.
Safety Assessment and Regulatory Authority to Use Flavors: Focus on E-Cigarettes | FEMA
BTW: I don't know if it means anything, but RJR is a FEMA member.
Last edited:
Yes and no it does get stronger as it steeps and yes it can develop on its own. If formulated properly it will not develop at all.
Diacetyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ma and Pa stores do sell great ejuice they may not have an idea whats happening after they mix and create multi flavored ejuices. Thats where it can develop on its own per se'; they mix two flavoring chemicals together and boom it starts to create diacetyl.. The two, three, or four original flavors did not have diacetyl but after combining they may/will ferment it..
It suxxs extremely, I am vaping some Ma and Pa vanilla rgt now, I know it has to have diacetyl in it, its hands down the best vanilla I have tried and I have tried nearly all of them.
I hate it's reality and will act ignorant of it until i finish these two bottles 
lol...Definitely takes a scientist to understand the what to's and what nots... Us whom DIY, we also have to be watchful as that combining flavors can start the diacetyl reaction.. I do trust TPA flavors as well as flavourart, NN and a few others that disclose whats in their juices and thank them for that disclosure. If you call TPA they are very welcoming to chat about their flavors and ingredients and may help with the what to mix and what not to....
Based on reading the article you linked to, the "secret group" (FEMA) who makes decisions on flavors, they don't seem at all accountable to consumers OR committed to transparency.
"The flavor industry’s system of self-policing helps it avoid government oversight, potentially saving companies significant amounts of time and money. In Europe, by contrast, companies must have their flavors and other ingredients reviewed for safety by an independent agency funded by the European Union.
The flavor industry makes its safety evaluations “behind closed doors” and then asks consumers to trust them, said Caroline Cox, research director for the Center for Environmental Health. “We just have enough experience with all kinds of toxic chemicals to know not to want to trust an evaluation if someone says, ‘Trust us, it’s all OK.’”
So, I guess I don't get why you have said (more than once now) that some similar trade organization should be making similar decisions for eliquids.
Although I do *get* your point about the FDA having a double standard, i.e. they "let" FEMA continue to do what it does, thereby avoiding regulation then they should let the ecig biz do the same.
However, I don't think I WANT an eliquid industry trade assoc. that operates like FEMA (Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association). They sure don't seem very ethical......more akin to the fox guarding the henhouse.
Last edited:
This is an important document that's doing the rounds currently. It was produced by scientists at Nicoventures, BAT's vaping/THR subsidiary: An approach to ingredient screening and toxicological risk assessment of flavours in e-liquids
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
