Confused about Diacetyl? You should be - read now

[Oliver]

Again: I like where you're coming from on this, and a balanced approach is needed. So I'd like to help you tune up your position by making a further point:



Strictly speaking, this IS NOT "confirmation bias." These are facts, which deserve fair consideration and cannot be dismissed.



On the other hand, taken by itself, this statement is indeed "confirmation bias." It is presented without supporting evidence, other than a reference in your article to a statement by Dr. Farsalinos...who himself presents no supporting evidence for the statement. It is nothing more than an idea, used to support another belief by dismissing the facts...just as you did in this quote.

I'm not trying to be insulting here. Striking a balanced posture is very difficult. I'll urge you again to give more than passing treatment to the work of Dr. Polosa, who presents actual evidence that vaping improves the lung health of even healthy smokers. It's OK to mention that BO is easy to misdiagnose, but one must be careful not to make too many assumptions about this when confronting the facts.

Thanks for your excellent input.

The reason I haven't given Dr. Polosa's important work more prominence in the article (despite linking to it) is that I don't consider it to be relevant to the specific debate. It's supportive of the notion that vaping sufficiently unburdens smokers' lungs such that rapid improvement is seen in terms of lung function, but it doesn't make any specific comment about the role of DA/AP in that process. Riccardo is quite emphatic, in person, that known risk factors should be eliminated as and when they transpire.

As to the references, this is my mistake. It appears a draft version without all the links was posted. I'll add the additional links back in.

Regarding the notion that BO may be underdiagnosed, here's the link from which I based this: Popcorn Lung (Bronchiolitis Obliterans) Symptoms and Causes - MedicineNet

 

[Troll from behind]

Yes and no it does get stronger as it steeps and yes it can develop on its own. If formulated properly it will not develop at all.
Diacetyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ma and Pa stores do sell great ejuice they may not have an idea whats happening after they mix and create multi flavored ejuices. Thats where it can develop on its own per se'; they mix two flavoring chemicals together and boom it starts to create diacetyl.. The two, three, or four original flavors did not have diacetyl but after combining they may/will ferment it..
It suxxs extremely, I am vaping some Ma and Pa vanilla rgt now, I know it has to have diacetyl in it, its hands down the best vanilla I have tried and I have tried nearly all of them. I hate it's reality and will act ignorant of it until i finish these two bottles lol...

Definitely takes a scientist to understand the what to's and what nots... Us whom DIY, we also have to be watchful as that combining flavors can start the diacetyl reaction.. I do trust TPA flavors as well as flavourart, NN and a few others that disclose whats in their juices and thank them for that disclosure. If you call TPA they are very welcoming to chat about their flavors and ingredients and may help with the what to mix and what not to....

Is there a chance of getting the diacetyl in the final product when mixing two or more "safe" flavours together?


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[aikanae1]

Based on reading the article you linked to, the "secret group" (FEMA) who makes decisions on flavors, they don't seem at all accountable to consumers OR committed to transparency.

"The flavor industry’s system of self-policing helps it avoid government oversight, potentially saving companies significant amounts of time and money. In Europe, by contrast, companies must have their flavors and other ingredients reviewed for safety by an independent agency funded by the European Union.

The flavor industry makes its safety evaluations “behind closed doors” and then asks consumers to trust them, said Caroline Cox, research director for the Center for Environmental Health. “We just have enough experience with all kinds of toxic chemicals to know not to want to trust an evaluation if someone says, ‘Trust us, it’s all OK.’”

So, I guess I don't get why you have said (more than once now) that some similar trade organization should be making similar decisions for eliquids.

Although I do *get* your point about the FDA having a double standard, i.e. they "let" FEMA continue to do what it does, thereby avoiding regulation then they should let the ecig biz do the same.

However, I don't think I WANT an eliquid industry trade assoc. that operates like FEMA (Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association). They sure don't seem very ethical......more akin to the fox guarding the henhouse.

They aren't accountable. The FDA in general is not accountable, nor do they feel like they need to be - at least that's been my observation. I was responding to the comment someone made that the FDA would check ingredients, etc. and I just don't see that happening.

The trade organization functions, at times, as the face of an industry to the FDA (or other regulatory agency). Often they are the ones setting standards or suggesting guidelines. That's the current framework. It doesn't mean they have to dublicate the extreme secrecy that FEMA does - but I've read a number of articles about the extreme secrecy of the flavoring industry as a whole which could also explain why some of the flavoring manufacturers don't know what is in their flavors and that's passed on to eliquid manufacturers.

I'm just pointing out that this industry poses a number of challenges to the way things have been traditionally done. Some is good, but some we may need to bend with. I could also be way off the mark here because I don't have practical experience with this, all I have is what I've read. I''m trying to sort this out too but I end up with more questions than answers.

 

[Visus]

Is there a chance of getting the diacetyl in the final product when mixing two or more "safe" flavours together?


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The short answer is yes it may, the diacetyl will/may form from alcohols being present in some flavors and when mixed with another water soluble or alcohol flavor it may start the chain reaction.. The link I posted to wiki's defining of diacetyl explains this alcohol chaining of diacetyl production. The long answer has to be explained by a chemist.. But yes it can..

Here's the chaining of how it occurs.

"A distinctive feature of diacetyl (and other 1,2-diketones) is the long C-C bond linking the carbonyl centers. This bond distance is about 1.54 Å, compared to 1.45 Å for the corresponding C-C bond in 1,3-butadiene. The elongation is attributed to repulsion between the polarized carbonyl carbon centers.[2] "

Bond together those chains and it starts forming, steep it long and it grows..

Ya its a tragedy to all of us whom enjoy complex ejuices but with proper chemistry rules in combining flavors we can eliminate it..
It will take proper professional research as with epoxy you have two separate chemicals mix them together and they make a whole different chain of chemical composition. Ya we definitely need some knowledge or just stick with basic juices known not to contain diacetyl..

 

[Robino1]

The short answer is yes it may, the diacetyl will/may form from alcohols being present in some flavors and when mixed with another water soluble or alcohol flavor it may start the chain reaction.. The link I posted to wiki's defining of diacetyl explains this alcohol chaining of diacetyl production. The long answer has to be explained by a chemist.. But yes it can..

Here's the chaining of how it occurs.

"A distinctive feature of diacetyl (and other 1,2-diketones) is the long C-C bond linking the carbonyl centers. This bond distance is about 1.54 Å, compared to 1.45 Å for the corresponding C-C bond in 1,3-butadiene. The elongation is attributed to repulsion between the polarized carbonyl carbon centers.[2] "

Bond together those chains and it starts forming, steep it long and it grows..

Ya its a tragedy to all of us whom enjoy complex ejuices but with proper chemistry rules in combining flavors we can eliminate it..
It will take proper professional research as with epoxy you have two separate chemicals mix them together and they make a whole different chain of chemical composition. Ya we definitely need some knowledge or just stick with basic juices known not to contain diacetyl..

Which could explain why there was such a difference in what 5Pawns test showed as compared to what Cloud9 tests showed. If this can actually happen (reserving judgement till more can be proofed out), as a hypothetical, tests should not be conducted on 'fresh' liquids. What then should be the benchmark of how old a liquid is before it can be sent out for testing?

Another thought, if indeed DA\AP do indeed 'grow', it is entirely plausible the BOTH tests were accurate at the age of the e-liquid when the testing occurred.

Oh boy. What a conundrum...

 

[Troll from behind]

What we need now are some tests to tell us how long should we store our liquids before throwing em away (IF DI is an issue for one) AND proper dates on the bottles.
Kinda makes one think this one's a fight that can't be won.


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[Visus]

Which could explain why there was such a difference in what 5Pawns test showed as compared to what Cloud9 tests showed. If this can actually happen (reserving judgement till more can be proofed out), as a hypothetical, tests should not be conducted on 'fresh' liquids. What then should be the benchmark of how old a liquid is before it can be sent out for testing?

Another thought, if indeed DA\AP do indeed 'grow', it is entirely plausible the BOTH tests were accurate at the age of the e-liquid when the testing occurred.

Oh boy. What a conundrum...

Yep
FP is a great benchmark tester for this occurrence as we know they take pride in their already steeped eliquids they even oak barrel steep for more prolific flavor saturation and now we know that saturation may indeed be the growth of diacetyl. Oh its so good why o why does it have to be harmful, in the world of lora mars one may never know...

I was vaping some blueberry ejuice outside oil change place and a military guy came out to have a smoke with he smelled it and told me that cyanide smells like fresh peaches; I now have a weirdoutness about peach ejuice since lol..

 

[Visus]

What we need now are some tests to tell us how long should we store our liquids before throwing em away (IF DI is an issue for one) AND proper dates on the bottles.
Kinda makes one think this one's a fight that can't be won.


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Check out the diketones from Njoy they paid millions for their ejuice formulations they are 0%, it can be done..
I must admit tho they have perhaps the nastiest vanilla ejuice I have ever tasted lol. The rest are decent with cigar being awesome.. It can be done...

 

[Gahh]

This article is a bit of information with the total prognosis of (No one Knows for sure,) as is the e-cigarette in general.
It can be easily assumed with no doubt that the human lung was designed for the intake of air, I will also add ( Fresh Air.) This is no longer possible in todays world.
There will always be something in the air we breath , as also the foods we eat that can have an adverse effect on the human organs.
Every week the news will change views that previously were thought to be good, to now no longer advised.

Almost comical, the warning on the side of saccharin stating, { has been found to cause cancer in laboratory animals. } And people continued using.

IMO it all sums up to a balance of how which we each live our lives
To much of anything is no good for you, ( not quite sure about money though.)

To all, worrying has never been helpful, Enjoy every day.

VapeOn

 

[Mazinny]

Check out the diketones from Njoy they paid millions for their ejuice formulations they are 0%, it can be done..
I must admit tho they have perhaps the nastiest vanilla ejuice I have ever tasted lol. The rest are decent with cigar being awesome.. It can be done...

Where have you seen the test results on NJoy ( their regular line ). I have seen results on their Artist Collection line, but not their standard lne sold at 7 11 . The double espresso from their regular line is excellent imo as well.

 

[Kent C]

The trade organization functions, at times, as the face of an industry to the FDA (or other regulatory agency). Often they are the ones setting standards or suggesting guidelines. That's the current framework.

This is where the rubber of politics hits the road. For every face of industry you see as either being or influencing a gov't agency, there are anti-industry/and in some cases true socialists - that have headed/and peopled those agencies - Carol Browner is a perfect example of both descriptions. In your world - it would be Charles Koch who would be the EPA chief, or at one point Henry Ford or Lee Iococca as the NHSTA head whereas it was actually Joan Claybrook - a Naderite. Or some anti-war peacnik as Sec. of Defense.

Then there are cases where people in industry, change colors in order to get gov't jobs to avoid the 'dog eat dog world' (an socialist epithet) of commerce in order to get 'real power and control ' - it's how, imo, we got Mitch Zeller.

 

[Shipwreck]

Awesome article!!

 

[Troll from behind]

Check out the diketones from Njoy they paid millions for their ejuice formulations they are 0%, it can be done..
I must admit tho they have perhaps the nastiest vanilla ejuice I have ever tasted lol. The rest are decent with cigar being awesome.. It can be done...

Yeah, but still doesn't help me craving for diy-custard!
Maybe if I make a small batch for single day usage the damage is minimal by not giving DI time to grow?


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[Robinowitz]

Well written article! Good on you SJ!

 

[Steven1]

Thanks for the info, I have more which should shed light on how to avoid dangerous levels of Diacetyl.


Define Diacetyl
Chemical C₄H₆O₂ (4 atoms of Carbon/6 atoms of hydrogen/2 atoms of oxygen)
Description organic compound. Volatile, yellow/green liquid with an intensely buttery flavour.
Production Chemical conversion of natural sugars into Diacetyloccurs through heating.


Diacetyl - an aroma component of tobacco smoke
The Chemical Components of Tobacco and Tobacco Smoke - Alan Rodgman, Thomas A. Perfetti - Google Books
See section 3475, right side column. This proves tobacco combustion creates Diacetyl as natural sugars in tobacco are converted to Diacetyl by combustion.


Roasting Coffee Beans Creates Diacetyl
Gasping for Action | Watchdog Report - Coffee roasters' health at risk from chemical compound, air samples suggest
So coffee beans roasted at 400°C creates Diacetyl also.


Fermentation of Beer using Yeast Creates Diacetyl
http://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Diacetyl_Time_Line.pdf
Even low temperatures creates Diacetyl.


Facts

We know that tobacco is combusted, whereas the e-juice flavour component is heavily diluted and vaporized at lower temperatures;

• A natural tobacco roll-up burns at around 700°C to 800°C
• A manufactured cigarette burns at around 900°C to 1200°C
• Juice from an e-cig vaporizes anywhere from 100°C to 200°C

Technical
Parts per million of Diacetyl/temperature/environment

0.1 to 1 |||||||| 7°C to 22°C |||||||| brewing(fermentation)
250-361 |||||||| 700°C to 1200°C |||||||| tobacco(combustion/smoke)
250-400 |||||||| 400°C |||||||| roasting(coffee beans)


Conclusion
Higher percentage of sugar, higher temperature = more Diacetyl.
Most manufacturers of e-juice cannot be blamed for Diacetyl because natural flavours contain sugars which transform into Diacetyl through heating. When we should blame them is when they purposely use isolated Diacetyl to produce buttery type flavours.
Recommend to vape at lowest wattage/voltage/settings and reduce potential harmful effects. Staying away from buttery flavours is a good idea and choosing non-sweet flavours to vape would be better.


Questions
Why does tobacco contain less Diacetyl at a higher temperature than coffee at lower temperature?
Simply, coffee beans contain more sugar than does tobacco.
Why have I not listed e-juice?
There are so many different flavours out there it would be impossible to generalise what PPM of Diacetyl would be present.
What is a safe level (parts per million) of Diacetyl?
There are currently no specific guidelines but it has been suggested at 2 to 5 ppm.

Let me know what you think of this info.
Cheers and vape safe

 

[Kent C]

So any barista, beer maker, vintner, and Juan Valdez should be at high risk of bronchiolitis obliterans (BO). Wonder what the percentage of that illness is in those jobs - seemingly cigarette smokers are unaffected.

 

[BuddJohnson]

Some very good investigative work and comments in this thread. Kudos to all who have contributed.
We are taking the "all things in moderation" approach to diketones until there is more scientific data available.

 

[Oliver]

So any barista, beer maker, vintner, and Juan Valdez should be at high risk of bronchiolitis obliterans (BO). Wonder what the percentage of that illness is in those jobs - seemingly cigarette smokers are unaffected.

This article sums up the issues well: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

 

[Racehorse]

Check out the diketones from Njoy they paid millions for their ejuice formulations they are 0%, it can be done..

Interesting.

They didn't need an industry trade association (like FEMA in the flavor industry) or the FDA, to accomplish this.

They just hired the right chemists, etc., to create their product.

 

[Troll from behind]

And a LOT of money.


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