Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.

[SeniorBoy]

@Mr.Mann - Thanks for bursting my bubble on the YouTube all stars!!! Correct and thanks. Not a chance IMHO that any of these "names on the bottles" will step forward.

I found this very very geeky document (8-2014) written by a Director of Analytical Toxicology at a Lab. Strong coffee and it's a good read and I think pertinent to this thread.

Conclusion:

Upon critical evaluation of the available toxicology and epidemiology data described within this monograph and more thoroughly within the associated references, along with the smoking behavior data collected on both human subjects and CF-PD simulations describing compensatory smoking behaviors and more deep lung exposures from e-cigs/vaporizers, it is concluded that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione should not be considered as candidates for flavoring in the e-cig/vaporizer solution. Furthermore, any consideration of reactive volatile organic carbonyl compounds for inclusion into the e-cig/vaporizer solution should be thoroughly evaluated based upon the most recent toxicological and epidemiological data.

Source

Current Bio of the author

HTH

 

[kates]

C9 made a very public display of publishing their results. 5P immediately felt the backlas

This is the dilema isn't it? If you have a clear policy not to sell da/ap juices, refuse to stock juices where the supplier will not agree to send test results and then are supplied by a juice maker who says they have these test results but doesn't produce them. You then have your own tests done - they come back with completely unexpected, shockingly high levels. You speak to the juice maker. They refuse to discuss in writing and take their stock back. You then have to decide if you publish your results or say nothing and let all those who believe they are vaping no ap carry on. The easiest thing is to say nothing - when this came out I discussed with my husband what we would do (as I'm sure the husband & wife owners of C9 did). We both said we would have probably gone around in circles for a while - but would have agreed that ethically we would have to publish. C9's stance is very clear and I think reasonable:
Our liquid testing protocol - Blog - Cloud 9 Vaping
Whether they were right to publish depend on your own ethical and moral stance.

 

[Mr.Mann]

what I would be concerned with is if 5P themselves actually marketed their products as DA/AP free. They can't control what representations retailers make. Now if it comes out that 5Ps literature for retailers indicates that their products are DA/AP free, then I would have a problem with that.

As it stands, I see no evidence that 5P has made any claims to that effect.

To be clear, that isn't on 5P site. If a retailer makes claims like that, that's on them, not 5P. If 5P told them to say that, then that's another thing entirely.

C9 made a very public display of publishing their results. 5P immediately felt the backlash. The site you refer to above is just a blurb they came up to advertise and 5P may not even know it exists.

Retailers should not make claims about products they sell. They should either decide to sell it or not.

If a retailer had previously (as in prior to all of this) sold 5P as "definitely containing diaectyl and acetyl propionyl", do you think 5P would've noticed? Hey, having DA could be a huge selling point to some people -- some people are proud to vape with it. Would that, as you say, only be on the retailer for selling it that way? I guess they can sell it anyway they want and never pop up on the radar, right? Plus, I bet 5P doesn't even use contracts with all types of rules and whatnot. They likely use casual handshake-agreements with very lax stipulations on marketing, pricing and MOQs. Ya' think?! Ha!

Preferring this to stay as amicable as possible, we can just agree to disagree based on what we both believe. Just know that ultimately what I believe is coming from one that fell madly in love with them exactly two years and a month ago today. I remember vividly the conversation and the questions I asked them (and I talked to Rodney) that day I got their liquid ( I always, especially back then, had a set of questions I asked vendors). I won't get messy and say what I "remember" about what was told to me because that is not going to hold water. Suffice it to say, I have my reasons to believe what I believe based on my experiences and you will do the same. My experiences are my evidence. Yours are yours. The fall out is evidence of the retailers' experiences.

 

[rurwin]

I have a feeling at least part of the reason Cloud9 posted their results was backlash from their customers. Five Pawns eliquid is not easy to get on this side of the ocean and a good source drying up with no explanation probably brought letters of complaint and conspiracy theories. What they would have wanted to do would have been to get together with Five Pawns and issue a joint statement with a plan going forward, but Five Pawns refused to talk on the record. I suspect that Cloud 9 had to say something to rescue their own reputation with their customers. If it had simply said the liquid breeched the AP limits then they would have been in a shouting match with Five Pawns. The most neutral action was to publish their results with a full explanation.

 

[kates]

I have a feeling at least part of the reason Cloud9 posted their results was backlash from their customers. Five Pawns eliquid is not easy to get on this side of the ocean and a good source drying up with no explanation probably brought letters of complaint and conspiracy theories. What they would have wanted to do would have been to get together with Five Pawns and issue a joint statement with a plan going forward, but Five Pawns refused to talk on the record. I suspect that Cloud 9 had to say something to rescue their own reputation with their customers. If it had simply said the liquid breeched the AP limits then they would have been in a shouting match with Five Pawns. The most neutral action was to publish their results with a full explanation.

I agree that they must have had loads of queries as to why it had been removed after such a short time. They would have had to lie if they didn't address the ap issue in some way (or if they'd refused to answer queries which would have led to even more speculation).

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I think 5P Will lose far more money in sales than if they had paid for testing and played the game square.

 

[zoiDman]

I think 5P Will lose far more money in sales than if they had paid for testing and played the game square.

This ^^^ is the Completely Baffling thing to Me.

Maybe the Judgment of the Five Pawns leadership has been Clouded by Long Term Acetyl Propionyl use?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Many distributors in Canada and the EU have pulled 5P from sale.
I read this in another thread from posters over there.

 

[zoiDman]

Many distributors in Canada and the EU have pulled 5P from sale.
I read this in another thread from posters over there.

If I was a Retailer, I don't think I would want to be Tied to Five Pawns.

 

[Lessifer]

I think 5P Will lose far more money in sales than if they had paid for testing and played the game square.

This ^^^ is the Completely Baffling thing to Me.

Maybe the Judgment of the Five Pawns leadership has been Clouded by Long Term Acetyl Propionyl use?

I think the difference is probably fairly small. I think most who have no issue with diketones will still buy their stuff, those who have an issue with diketones won't any more, but that would have happened if they had released their own results as well. Those who refuse to buy them solely for ethical reasons, because of the lies, are probably a relatively small number.

Now, future sales of their pg-free line, those will probably take a hit.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I think all 5P sales will take a hit.
But yes some will continue to vape. If I liked them I would not because of the duplicity. And I feel that those who care about DT/AP have the right to know if it is in their juice and the levels of content so they can make up their own minds to use it or not.
Myself I quit smoking and started vaping to save money, not for my health and I love CAP Vanilla Custard V1, which has AP I think but no DT.

 

[Lessifer]

I think all 5P sales will take a hit.
But yes some will continue to vape. If I liked them I would not because of the duplicity. And I feel that those who care about DT/AP have the right to know if it is in their juice and the levels of content so they can make up their own minds to use it or not.
Myself I quit smoking and started vaping to save money, not for my health and I love CAP Vanilla Custard V1, which has AP I think but no DT.

I have no doubt they'll take a hit, I just think it would have happened either way.

People have the right to ask about ingredients, and to not be lied to.

I won't be buying any 5P, but I had no plans to anyway. Their stuff is too expensive, and none of their flavors that I've tried were worth it to me.

 

[zoiDman]

I think the difference is probably fairly small. I think most who have no issue with diketones will still buy their stuff, those who have an issue with diketones won't any more, but that would have happened if they had released their own results as well. Those who refuse to buy them solely for ethical reasons, because of the lies, are probably a relatively small number.

Now, future sales of their pg-free line, those will probably take a hit.

Its hard to Say.

I think there are a Lot of People who are not going to buy Five Pawns on a regular basis because of the Price. But might "Splurge" every now and again. Or those who just want to Buy 1 Bottle to See what all the Hype is About.

I think a Percentage of these People will be Lost. And as you Mentioned, the people who view Five Pawns as a Deceitful company.

I know I have Not Bought a Single Item from Totally Wicked ever since Jason had that Epic Meltdown on UKvaper.com. And then Threated to Sue if UKvapers.com didn't delete all his Post. And the Posts of those who (Rightfully) Skewered him.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I tried a couple of the 5P juices at my sons. A friend of his was there and is eat up with "clouds bro"
I was not impressed with the juice and yes too costly for this frugal tootle puffer.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Its hard to Say.

I think there are a Lot of People who are not going to buy Five Pawns on a regular basis because of the Price. But might "Splurge" every now and again. Or those who just want to Buy 1 Bottle to See what all the Hype is About.

I think a Percentage of these People will be Lost. And as you Mentioned, the people who view Five Pawns as a Deceitful company.

I know I have Not Bought a Single Item from Totally Wicked ever since Jason had that Epic Meltdown on UKvaper.com. And then Threated to Sue if UKvapers.com didn't delete all his Post. And the Posts of those who (Rightfully) Skewered him.

yep call me old fashioned but I like to support the guys who wear the white hats.
And walk the talk.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't consider us the norm, even though I wish we were.

 

[Jumpin' In...]

@ zoiDman: What "epic meltdown"? Link please?

 

[zoiDman]

yep call me old fashioned but I like to support the guys who wear the white hats.
And walk the talk.

I think Five Pawn dug their Own Hole. So I can't feel very Sorry for them when they Fell Into It.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I don't consider us the norm, even though I wish we were.

I do not want to be the norm. The norm around here wears their jammies to Wally World. And their .... cheeks almost drag the floor while riding on the electric carts.
I am far from the norm I do not even own any camos at all.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I think Five Pawn dug their Own Hole. So I can't feel very Sorry for them when they Fell Into It.

I actually feel a bit of Karma satisfaction. I enjoy seeing false people fall on their faces.