Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[englishmick]

How has this become a political debate?

If you make non factual claims about your product for my consumption, you're a scumbag not worthy of me parting with my money and deserve all the repercussions of being caught... and apparently more according to the ridiculousness seen right here.

I can't believe 5 pawns (as one example) will be able to stay in business after this.

As consumers, we're getting what we're asking for as a unit.

< >Thanks guys for demanding transparency and truth in marketing. /sarcasm

Tapatyped

You know, when this first came up I was feeling a little sorry for 5P. It just seemed like the scenery was shifting, and those guys didn't know what to do. Like they were inexperienced in the business of business. They were only doing what most of the rest of the industry was doing, but instead of sitting down and trying to figure out how to respond to what was happening they panicked and dug themselves in deeper.

When politicians get caught doing something dodgy the ones who fess up and take action to fix the problem tend to survive, the ones who double down and go on the attack tend to sink without trace.

5P could dig themselves out. They could go the Tylenol route. Immediately test all their products and publish them prominently, and do it by having an independent third party buy their juices from shops. Become part of developing testing protocols. Start developing new products. Keep on selling their highly regarded AP juices to folks who were OK with that. Say sorry, we made a mistake, and then become the cleanest of the clean. Then people out here might be saying, why can't the rest of the industry do what 5P are doing. Instead of positioning themselves as the poster child of what's wrong in the industry.

 

[skoony]

snip -

with the exception of eliquid manufactures every other business that makes and sells products for human consumption, including one man operations, have to comply with Federal regulations, just ask any Etsy seller and I did not see them dropping like flies from the burden, it's the price of doing business.

yes they have to comply to the regulations already on the books
that when applied to vaping as they should already be,negates
any need for further extra special regulation for vaping.
regards
mike

 

[englishmick]

We allow the debate or encourage it?
And I am not sure debate is the proper word to use for the context of what has been going on in this thread.
A bit too civilized and organized of a word to describe some of the antics.

I think there's been some pretty enlightening debate here actually. Though at times you did have to wade through a lot of antics to get to it.

 

[skoony]

I would argue that both VS & C9 have presented results as part of a decision making process as to how they run their business. They have different approaches – Vapourshark is giving the information but still selling so the customer chooses whether they vape a/dp or not. If any juice maker has problems with VS doing what they did could remove their juice. VS only had results linked to product – if the juice is removed the test results are removed. C9 have had a clear policy for a long time they require test results showing no a/ap- or they do their own test. The 5P issue has only arisen because 5P misrepresented - they could have said we won’t give you our test results as we do have d/ap in our juice beforehand and then C9 would not have stocked them. They didn’t think C9 would actually test or they thought they wouldn’t publish so they could continue to infer they were d/ap free. We are not talking about 0 – 0.02, or 0 – 25 we are talking about 0-300, 0-600, 0-900 (by their own results). Cloud 9 is not a competitor to 5P in the juice market – they do an ‘own range’ juice but it isn’t a ‘premium juice’ and it isn’t the mainstay of their business- their main business is selling other people’s products. People are seriously not going to rush to buy C9’s juice because 5P isn’t available. Both VS & C9 have, in effect made the decision for their business that we are all making for ourselves – do we and if so how much? They are in a slightly different situation as we only need to decide for ourselves – they have a responsibility for what they sell to their customers (if they take their role seriously). It appears the main sticking point is ‘should they publish’? Well any problem with publishing only arises when it shows something someone doesn’t want you to see.

Of course both these companies and a lot of other companies will have to make certain decisions moving forward as will all resellers base on what has happened recently. C9 may e.g. decide to include in any contract that if they get independent tests they have the right to publish. This hasn’t been seen as necessary before because it has been assumed (obviously naively) that if someone says they are free of something and will provide test results, they should be aware what will happen if they don’t and will not enter into a contract. VS may decide to show tests to suppliers beforehand so they have the option to remove their product if they wish. As consumers we are than aware we can buy from vs knowing what results are and choose our d/ap preference and from C9 if we want d/ap free knowing their policy.

Most just want the information provided - I haven’t seen much ‘remove all diketones from everything’ – with information each of us can then make a decision about what ppm is within our acceptable limits. We are not children - most understand this is not an exact science – what actually matters is we trust ‘intent’. If someone is genuinely trying to do something and a problem arises, they are open and honest – most people will be pretty forgiving. Having the information is allowing a vaping choice – not having it is denying a choice. It makes no difference to those who don’t care – it makes a big difference to those that do.

nice business decision.
lets through our competitors under the bus.
regards
mike

 

[kates]

nice business decision.
lets through our competitors under the bus.

I think 5P threw themselves under the bus

 

[kates]

5P could dig themselves out. They could go the Tylenol route. Immediately test all their products and publish them prominently, and do it by having an independent third party buy their juices from shops. Become part of developing testing protocols. Start developing new products. Keep on selling their highly regarded AP juices to folks who were OK with that. Say sorry, we made a mistake, and then become the cleanest of the clean. Then people out here might be saying, why can't the rest of the industry do what 5P are doing. Instead of positioning themselves as the poster child of what's wrong in the industry.

Couldn't agree more - I would be in the front row applauding if they did this.

 

[skoony]

I think 5P threw themselves under the bus

threw themselves or were they pushed?
news at 11:00

mike

 

[kates]

threw themselves or were they pushed?
news at 11:00

Well as I said I think they threw themselves. Sorry - I don't know what news at 11:00 means?

 

[skoony]

Well as I said I think they threw themselves. Sorry - I don't know what news at 11:00 means?

stay tuned there's more.

mike

 

[Robino1]

Well as I said I think they threw themselves. Sorry - I don't know what news at 11:00 means?

stay tuned there's more.

mike

News stations release little tidbits, that they think will be interesting enough to get people to watch the news, during commercial breaks on our tv shows. They always say (after the teaser) News at 11.

I take it the UK doesn't participate in this practice? I wish ours didn't. They show what those teasers were about very late into the news broadcast. So if you're really interested, you have to sit through all the sensationalized garbage beforehand. Only to realize it is just more sensationalized garbage.

 

[kates]

I take it the UK doesn't participate in this practice?

Not this particular practice but we do have our own share of sensationalised garbage

 

[skoony]

while perusing other sites a came across this.
i thought it may be of interest to this discussion.

Though I am Co-President of Southern California SFATA I would like to make very clear that I am writing this letter as an attorney, consultant and investment banker.
I have quietly watched the vapor industry (and in some cases consumers) for the past few months publicly hurl accusations against other companies, particularly on social media forums. These accusations seem to come in three primary forms; alleged marketing to children, bad test results for diacetyl and other “hazardous” substances and intellectual property violations.
I am requesting that those who claim they are taking these actions “for the benefit of the industry” actually think about what they are doing here. In an environment of deep hostility and in light of active attempts to shut the industry down, the result is that we are providing our opponents and challengers with the very ammunition they need to ensure this industry is regulated to death. Public shaming and witch-hunts, many of which may be without basis, will ensure that public’s perception of us remains tarnished.
Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information. The industry as a whole must become more professional handling these situations. Posting accusations in public without a full investigation, is both foolhardy and mimics the actions of our opponents.
read more
An Open Letter to The Ecig Industry Regarding Accusations | The Vaping Militia

regards
mike

 

[tj99959]

Might want to read this. (Tuesday July 7)
FDA Cloud Hangs Over Vape Shops - WSJ

The approval process could cost anywhere from $2 million to $10 million to collect data and put forward an application for each item, according to the regulatory consulting company SciLucent LLC.

If you added up all the flavors made by all the vendors, the cost would be over a TRILLION dollars to get them approved. That's over 996 BILLION more than the value of the entire industry.

Does that put things into perspective for you?

 

[caramel]

"The Industry" will get where it deserves to get.

Meanwhile "Every man fo himself". I just checked my freezer and everything looks okay.

 

[YoursTruli]

while perusing other sites a came across this.
i thought it may be of interest to this discussion.

Though I am Co-President of Southern California SFATA I would like to make very clear that I am writing this letter as an attorney, consultant and investment banker.
I have quietly watched the vapor industry (and in some cases consumers) for the past few months publicly hurl accusations against other companies, particularly on social media forums. These accusations seem to come in three primary forms; alleged marketing to children, bad test results for diacetyl and other “hazardous” substances and intellectual property violations.
I am requesting that those who claim they are taking these actions “for the benefit of the industry” actually think about what they are doing here. In an environment of deep hostility and in light of active attempts to shut the industry down, the result is that we are providing our opponents and challengers with the very ammunition they need to ensure this industry is regulated to death. Public shaming and witch-hunts, many of which may be without basis, will ensure that public’s perception of us remains tarnished.
Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information. The industry as a whole must become more professional handling these situations. Posting accusations in public without a full investigation, is both foolhardy and mimics the actions of our opponents.
read more
An Open Letter to The Ecig Industry Regarding Accusations | The Vaping Militia

regards
mike

.........
The views expressed in this article are of the author.
..........

to which I disagree with

 

[zoiDman]

Here is a little Tid Bit from that WSJ article.

"Some liquid nicotine manufacturers are investing in the research tools necessary to apply for FDA approval.

Mr. Walsh, the CEO of PureBacco, estimated it sank $500,000 over the past year into upgraded manufacturing facilities and analytics equipment for his Flavorz juice brand. Five Pawns Inc., a California-based liquid-nicotine company, hired a half-dozen advisers to assist with regulatory, scientific, manufacturing and legal issues related to regulation.

“It’s going to become very expensive to play in the game,” said Five Pawns Chief Executive Rodney Jerabek. “This could mean the end for a lot of small companies.”

 

[YoursTruli]

Might want to read this. (Tuesday July 7)
FDA Cloud Hangs Over Vape Shops - WSJ



If you added up all the flavors made by all the vendors, the cost would be over a TRILLION dollars to get them approved. That's over 900 BILLION more than the value of the entire industry.

Does that put things into perspective for you?

can not read the article without a subscription to WSJ

 

[zoiDman]

can not read the article without a subscription to WSJ

Try doing a Google search for ...

FDA Cloud Hangs Over Vape Shops

I was able to view the article when I came in thru Google.

 

[kates]

Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information.

Absolutely, 5P should take note of this. They should also enable a 'full investigation' and not refuse to communicate when they are privately informed of results.

 

[skoony]

can not read the article without a subscription to WSJ

ditto.
tried logging in with facebook.
regards
mike