You used weird and risks in the same sentence in asking why all the fuss. I find that weird......and risky.
The Muffin Man and The Milk Man - Company's response to Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl
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Ask John Manville about the Billions they paid in asbestos claims...oh yea, they no longer exist. Facepalm
Those two or three people don't happen to have the same thoughts as you do and that is quite alright and their opinion, thoughts and advice is just as welcome as yours are. I happen to agree that post such as this that prematurely, and with no evidence of wrong doing, call out a vender can induce panic, cause hysteria, and can needlessly cause a loss of revenue for the said company. They are in no way stifling the debate but rather giving their view point of it. Why should they or anybody have to bare a label such as "Hall Monitor". Or why should they or any of us have to avoid any topic? And why do you have exclusive rights to saying whatever you want but others have to behave or they are instantly trolling or harassing. Reading the good the bad and the ugly gives a discussion balance. Nobody can force (through the internet anyway) and opinion on another person. Last year when SB ran into troubles I admit....I panicked a bit. I based my opinion at the time on fear. I then took the time to read other views and thought to myself that they had a point and realigned my beliefs based on the new information I had thanks to those that gave a different view point.
I also want to make clear why I chose the words to describe puffing and it is based on this definition of Puffing... ( In law, puffery is a promotional statement or claim that expresses subjective rather than objective views, which no "reasonable person" would take literally.) Reasonable person and semi-intelligent may not be exactly the same but close enough for me since it had been a bit since I had seen the exact words. I still don't think a reasonable or semi-intelligent person would take the emailed statement literally or as any real assurance. And I believe I recognized in my reply to you that I misunderstood your intent, or I think I said " I understand what you meant now." I do think about what I say to everybody here on every topic whether I agree or disagree.
I am wondering why you think that somebodies post cannot be questioned? All the OP would have had to do and I believe they did much later, is reply and clear things up. If I see a post that comes off as a planted drama scheme can I not say that? Only certain people can refer to others as trolling?
How is that kind of statement any different or better? What are you implying here? Seems to me you might like to look down your nose at somebody that has a different way of expressing themselves.
as opposed to the billions paid for silicon breast implants
they discovered after the fact were harmless?
actually there was evidence they were harmless.
it was just ignored by the jury.
regards
mike
It's because we're "wrong" duh
You'll notice that one side of this discussion tends to stick to rational arguments, while some on the other side resort to name calling, plays on emotion, calls for "common sense," and character attacks. It's much the same when I debate my less popular views on other subjects like age restrictions.
When you can't refute the logic, you go after the person.
Even skoony's post that supposedly "started" the argument wasn't attacking the OP, he was attacking the OP's post and its intentions.
What's weird is the fear induced by diketones which have no documented harm in vaping yet there are any number of flavoring chemicals such as aldehydes that we know can have a potential for harm. Why not demand full disclosures on all chemicals?
In reverse order :
When someone responds not to what i said, but to an exaggerated and distorted caricature of what i said, i suspect i am being trolled. When someone consistently uses an irrelevant premise to justify their response to my statement, i suspect i am being trolled. When someone uses a slippery slope argument to exaggerate the consequences of my argument, i suspect i am being trolled. When someone inserts a red herring into a discussion to divert from the main focus of my argument, i suspect i am being trolled...... Note i have never said that the person to whom i think you are referring has " a different way of expressing himself " which usually is a code for something else and a tad condescending imo.
I never said somebody's post could not be questioned. No one asked if the op has bought or considered buying from this vendor. He was immediately accused of " wanting to start another tempest in a teapot " and instructed to get his own analysis. A new member to ECF no less with less than 50 posts at the time. What a welcome !
As for your " puffing " analysis and implications that those who disagree with your interpretation, are less than " semi-intellegent " we have already discussed the topic and i have nothing more to add.
If one consistently repeats the same paragraph on every topic related directly or tangentially to diketones, not in an open and engaging manner, but in an accusatory and harsh tone, i respectfully argue that it is designed to stifle and harass and not to engage in a productive discussion. I will leave it to you and other fair minded members to reach your own conclusion after reading the first few posts of the thread.
As to the accusations of " inducing panic" and " causing hysteria" etc... i will only speak on my own behalf, that way i am assured of being accurate. I challenge you to find a single post where i engaged in fear mongering, and i will immediately apologize. My posts on the diketone issue are already in different threads but in case anyone is wondering, here is a post i made a couple of weeks ago in a different thread in reply to some members concern after the Vaporshark testing :
Best gourmet ejuice vendors #2 - The journey continues! | Page 449 | E-Cigarette Forum
Finally, I owe absolutely no allegiance to the " industry " and to the extent that i engage in any "advocacy ", it is primarily for the " consumer". Plenty of "advocacy " already on behalf of the " industry ". If a dishonest or misleading vendor loses a tiny amount of profit, because they were called out, so be it.
Jode, i have no idea why you seem so angry with me to be honest. Prior to today, i have had no interaction with you so i don't know where this is coming from. If you want to continue discussing this, i will gladly have a conversation with you via pm.
Probably true, but the AP and DA got more notoriety because those are the ones Dr. F. gave his opinion that should not be in any ejuice.
Guess you could ask companies like Johnson Creek, NJOY, MOV, HALO don't allow diketones in their ejuices...
Chemists probably had some input here, whether on staff or as consults. Chemist member here who was part of the study Dr. F. did, was saying years ago was suspicious of diketones.
I would rather rely on that kind of advice than vapers who say they don't understand why people worry about it.
...soon will all be a moot point since the respected professional companies won't use them and they also use other "good practices" and will be standing after regs go into effect. It is easy to watch the behaviors of the more professional manufacturers (I remember saying this about Johnson Creek back when they were the first ones to be using glass bottles, shrink wrapping, child proof caps, lot and batch #s, etc. even though they didn't HAVE to and this was many years ago!) and realizing at that moment where the industry was going to go and the amateurs who would fall by the wayside .....
Only had time to read the 1st page but basically this "skoony"/"mike" is paid to shill for this company poisoning people?
So did this company ever provide any proof of analysis after responding to the customer by declaring "it's totally safe bro"? (implying they are in a position to know)
The fact that someone would commercially market eliquid without bothering to have it tested first (or as others have said chosen not to publish because it hurts their coin grubbing) means they are at best dangerously incompetent.
If when questioned these people are quick to brush off any questions without any proof for their claims, just keep giving us more money my antenna goes up.
Particularly when discussion does not even begin before the shills are sicked to defend their employers.
All I can say is when you blindly follow claims of people playing with your health you end up like the millions of Americans who were duped into getting a "Polio vaccine" which was infact SV40 monkey cancer virus, specifically chosen because the only thing it does is cause malignant tumors, or eating GMO "food" which infact causes cancer and sterility in all mammals who consume it, you were fed it without even being told, they don't want you to have the option of not eating it or even knowing if you are eating it, the biowarfare scientists at Monsanto and sell out traitor politicians don't eat it, and they made it illegal to conduct or publish testing results which always show the same devastating results - that is it's function.
When you state any facts on those topics you are instantly attacked by legions of spineless shills.
Forgive me if anytime I see someone being attacked for attempting to verify that what is being presented to them as safe is actually that I am reminded of this
The fact that someone would commercially market eliquid without bothering to have it tested first (or as others have said chosen not to publish because it hurts their coin grubbing) means they are at best dangerously incompetent.
If when questioned these people are quick to brush off any questions without any proof for their claims, just keep giving us more money my antenna goes up.
Particularly when discussion does not even begin before the shills are sicked to defend their employers.
All I can say is when you blindly follow claims of people playing with your health you end up like the millions of Americans who were duped into getting a "Polio vaccine" which was infact SV40 monkey cancer virus, specifically chosen because the only thing it does is cause malignant tumors, or eating GMO "food" which infact causes cancer and sterility in all mammals who consume it, you were fed it without even being told, they don't want you to have the option of not eating it or even knowing if you are eating it, the biowarfare scientists at Monsanto and sell out traitor politicians don't eat it, and they made it illegal to conduct or publish testing results which always show the same devastating results - that is it's function.
When you state any facts on those topics you are instantly attacked by legions of spineless shills.
Forgive me if anytime I see someone being attacked for attempting to verify that what is being presented to them as safe is actually that I am reminded of this
If you never lie you never need to keep track of your lies and keep the charade going.
If I were selling ejuice and was too irresponsible and unprofessional to bother to test the .... I tell people to put in their lungs that would be my answer when they asked is it safe/what's in it.
Instead of you know, lying or some other nice sounding PR euphemism for duping all the suckers, which is exactly how all "public relations" (propaganda) and marketing companies employees are trained to perceive the public, simple idiots who are there to be manipulated for profit.
(Assuming that this company has not provided proof of the claims they were so happy to make for the purpose of continuing to sell their product)
If I were selling ejuice and was too irresponsible and unprofessional to bother to test the .... I tell people to put in their lungs that would be my answer when they asked is it safe/what's in it.
Instead of you know, lying or some other nice sounding PR euphemism for duping all the suckers, which is exactly how all "public relations" (propaganda) and marketing companies employees are trained to perceive the public, simple idiots who are there to be manipulated for profit.
(Assuming that this company has not provided proof of the claims they were so happy to make for the purpose of continuing to sell their product)
Sorry for the delay in recognizing your link. I didn't make the connection at first. I am not really sure where the steeping rumor originated from and after reading this I was reminded that I need to be more careful to not repeat rumors absent of proof. For that I am sorry. This all strikes me similar to many of the food issues over the years. Eggs are bad, eggs are good, use margarine instead of butter, margarine will kill you, etc..... Geesh, one could go batty if they listened to all the latest fears and scares. Thanks again for leading me to PA's site.
Actually that TPA page hints at the "steeping makes/increases diacetyl" by saying that
"unlikely" doesn't mean impossible, plus that was written 5 years ago. I did read somewhere else something about binding, but can't find the link now. I'll look again tonight.
For the comment in blue, I was not referring to any one person. I am not even following what you mean really because it does not line up at all with what I said. I never said you used those words, I did, and if they are code for something condescending please enlighten me. We all have different ways of expressing ourselves so I fail to understand any coding in that statement.
For the comment in green, I am not angry with you. I made a reply to one of your comments (that was thread related), you replied to that and it continued to here. I didn't know I needed to have prior interactions with any one person in order to comment to them. This whole thread was derailed from it's original purpose very early on, so I was just responding to your words. No, I have no need nor want to continue in pm or here for that matter. It is very obvious that you and I am not going to see where each other is coming from and that is ok. Enjoy the day. I know I will.
I just tried and tried to seek out information on it but could not find anything that is not rumor at this point. Ya, I picked up on that hint, but it also says it is stopped upon mixing or am I misunderstanding?
Also, I'm not experienced with juice testing, but am familiar with testing for lead content in products intended for use with children. In lab testing for ANYTHING there is a "margin of error" - we have sent the same product in for testing multiple times and gotten widely varying results back due to "margin of error".
I suspect it would be pretty easy for a juice maker to keep sending their juice in for testing until they got back a favorable result, because of varying "level of detection" abilities, and "margin of error".
I suspect it would be pretty easy for a juice maker to keep sending their juice in for testing until they got back a favorable result, because of varying "level of detection" abilities, and "margin of error".
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