Five Pawns now on ECF

[Mazinny]

Rob,

Another co-owner of the company ( Gavin Tucker ) stated in Sept. 2014 that you will release the results of your testing as soon as you receive them. Your representative on Reddit ( Vinnie977 ) stated the same. As we now know you received your test results in Sept. and Oct. of 2014. Could you explain why the results were not released at that time. Vinnie977 was asked the question on Reddit and replied that he is no longer affiliated with your company and thus unable to respond.

Also, you stated in your blog-post that : five pawns does not feel there is any concern with diacetyl or AP in our e-liquids at current levels. AP can be an important flavor enhancer for flavor profiles that are creamy in nature, and is used widely in the food and beverage industries.

Please explain if you feel AP may be of concern at some level, and if so, at what level. Have you relied on any studies to determine what the " safe level " is.

Thank You

 

[zelda]

Welcome to the forum Rob.

I'm a bit taken aback at the confrontational tone of some posters here. If I was that worried about the ingredients of an eliquid I simply wouldn't vape it - not go on the attack.

 

[JohnD0406]

The Cloud9 results really are irrelevant - there's no need for Five Pawns to try to discredit them, and there's no need for us to question their results - we can forget all about Cloud9 really. What Cloud9 did was bring attention to the unsafe levels of AP in Five Pawns liquids. Until they released their results, there were no results and only Five Pawns word that there was no AP in their liquids. Well what do you know... Five Pawns replied with a blog post, including their own test results which also show very high levels of AP. While not nearly as high as Cloud9's results, their own results are many, many times higher than considered safe by NIOSH - scientists who study these very things. I'm curious why Five Pawns - an e-liquid company - disagrees with NIOSH.

Here's the NIOSH video. A little dull, and 4 hours long, but this link skips right to the good part. Spend a few minutes listening to this and make your own decisions. All I, and many others, wanted was the truth from Five Pawns when asked if their liquids contained any DA/AP so we can make an informed choice. What we got were lies. Now that the truth is out, those of you who want to continue using Five Pawns liquids are more than welcome to do so. You're adults and can make your own decisions. Just like the decision to smoke, nobody should judge you. BUT, those of us who choose to avoid liquids containing DA/AP were DENIED that right by Five Pawns lies. THAT is what I'm most upset about. Anyway, the video...

 

[JohnD0406]

I'm a bit taken aback at the confrontational tone of some posters here. If I was that worried about the ingredients of an eliquid I simply wouldn't vape it - not go on the attack.

This industry, not just Five Pawns or Suicide Bunny before them, has shown us they cannot be trusted. If I wasn't flat-out lied to when asked if their liquids contain any of these ingredients, I wouldn't have an issue with them now. But, since they did lie, and I vaped dangerous chemicals I was trying to avoid by actively reaching out to e-liquid manufacturers, I want them to answer for their lies. Had I not asked, and thus not been lied to, I would have stopped vaping their liquids the moment they posted their own test results on their blog. Forget about Cloud9 - their own results are very high. So, confrontational? Wouldn't you be if you were lied to?

Imagine if you had a peanut allergy. You have to review the ingredients of everything you buy. Manufacturers even have to list "manufactured in a facility that also handles products containing peanuts" or some wording very close to that. It's the law. Imagine if a food manufacturer lied? Could be deadly. Same here. I'm confident the FDA will take care of this problem - unfortunately it seems they need to. If only these e-liquid manufacturers first of all tested, but then told the truth when asked about it, rather than lie to their customers. So much for self-regulation.

Hope you can understand MY confrontational tone. I know I'm not the only one, but just trying to shed some light as to why. We were lied to, and denied our right to make an informed decision.

 

[Jman8]

What Cloud9 did was bring attention to the unsafe levels of AP in Five Pawns liquids. Until they released their results, there were no results and only Five Pawns word that there was no AP in their liquids. Well what do you know... Five Pawns replied with a blog post, including their own test results which also show very high levels of AP. While not nearly as high as Cloud9's results, their own results are many, many times higher than considered safe by NIOSH - scientists who study these very things. I'm curious why Five Pawns - an e-liquid company - disagrees with NIOSH.

Again, can you provide link to scientists who are on record for saying AP inhalation is unsafe for vaping?

Here's the NIOSH video. A little dull, and 4 hours long, but this link skips right to the good part. Spend a few minutes listening to this and make your own decisions.

The conclusion of the the link is "believed to be." That equals supposition, not scientific knowledge.

All I, and many others, wanted was the truth from Five Pawns when asked if their liquids contained any DA/AP so we can make an informed choice. What we got were lies. Now that the truth is out, those of you who want to continue using Five Pawns liquids are more than welcome to do so. You're adults and can make your own decisions. Just like the decision to smoke, nobody should judge you. BUT, those of us who choose to avoid liquids containing DA/AP were DENIED that right by Five Pawns lies. THAT is what I'm most upset about.

Given that your first point on your earlier list emphasizes (with all caps) the very unsafe levels of AP, one would hope this could be backed up. I get that you feel you were lied to, and hopefully 5P rep (Rob) can speak to that. But, it's nice when we are dealing with actual data, rather than trumped up, or over inflated, concerns based on faulty data (aka suppositions).

 

[Jman8]

I'm confident the FDA will take care of this problem - unfortunately it seems they need to.

I'm confident the FDA will not take care of this perceived problem and am highly interested in wagering with anyone who is expressing confidence that FDA will provide adequate solution. I predict things will be worse under FDA jurisdiction. Let me know if such a wager interests you.

 

[SomeTexan]

Again, can you provide link to scientists who are on record for saying AP inhalation is unsafe for vaping?



The conclusion of the the link is "believed to be." That equals supposition, not scientific knowledge.



Given that your first point on your earlier list emphasizes (with all caps) the very unsafe levels of AP, one would hope this could be backed up. I get that you feel you were lied to, and hopefully 5P rep (Rob) can speak to that. But, it's nice when we are dealing with actual data, rather than trumped up, or over inflated, concerns based on faulty data (aka suppositions).

You are missing the most important part. 5 pawns LIED to their customers. They advertised false information about their products. That alone should sent them to jail and close their doors for good.

 

[Pinggolfer]

I want them to answer for their lies.

We were lied to, and denied our right to make an informed decision.

You keep on with the being lied to. By whom? Five Pawns never lied to me or to any of their customers as far as I know.

 

[Jman8]

You are missing the most important part. 5 pawns LIED to their customers. They advertised false information about their products. That alone should sent them to jail and close their doors for good.

I acknowledge they apparently lied to consumers in what was stated via correspondence with some customers. Not sure if it can be backed up that they advertised this. In another thread, I've noted that C9 is lying about their zero nic liquids on their sales pages, when on another page on their site, tucked way down in fine print, they essentially say "zero doesn't mean zero." Should this alone send C9 people to jail and close their doors for good?

I also disagree that the lie is the most important part. IMO, that's just moving the goal posts from, "we are up in arms over this VERY UNSAFE chemical being in our vaping products" to "no wait, wait, we are instead upset that a business lied to us." Cause you know, no business would ever lie to its customers.

 

[bman1977]

You are missing the most important part. 5 pawns LIED to their customers. They advertised false information about their products. That alone should sent them to jail and close their doors for good.

This makes no sense. This industry is like the Wild West right now. For all we know all these companies are lying to us and laughing all the way to the bank. The one regulation I think we need is labeling of ingredients just like food labels. I don't buy foods with MSG in it because of questionable studies on it. Its not proven that its bad for you but I can make the choice of not consuming it by reading the label. Same should be true with juices. THERE IS NO ONE REGULATING THIS INDUSTRY RIGHT NOW EXCEPT ITSELF. Back off of Five Pawns.

 

[Pinggolfer]

You are missing the most important part. 5 pawns LIED to their customers. They advertised false information about their products. That alone should sent them to jail and close their doors for good.

Where and when?

 

[SomeTexan]

I acknowledge they apparently lied to consumers in what was stated via correspondence with some customers. Not sure if it can be backed up that they advertised this. In another thread, I've noted that C9 is lying about their zero nic liquids on their sales pages, when on another page on their site, tucked way down in fine print, they essentially say "zero doesn't mean zero." Should this alone send C9 people to jail and close their doors for good?

I also disagree that the lie is the most important part. IMO, that's just moving the goal posts from, "we are up in arms over this VERY UNSAFE chemical being in our vaping products" to "no wait, wait, we are instead upset that a business lied to us." Cause you know, no business would ever lie to its customers.

At one point in time, it was on their website that their products were 100% free of da and ap.

I don't really thing those chemicals are as bad as some people make them out to be, and would have tried their liquids regardless of them. But how can I trust a company to offer a safe e-liquid when they refuse to be honest?

 

[SomeTexan]

This makes no sense. This industry is like the Wild West right now. For all we know all these companies are lying to us and laughing all the way to the bank. The one regulation I think we need is labeling of ingredients just like food labels. I don't buy foods with MSG in it because of questionable studies on it. Its not proven that its bad for you but I can make the choice of not consuming it by reading the label. Same should be true with juices. THERE IS NO ONE REGULATING THIS INDUSTRY RIGHT NOW EXCEPT ITSELF. Back off of Five Pawns.

I will not back off. They called in lawyers on a company that had testing done on quite a few e liquids to protect their customers. There are many better ways for them to have handled that situation. The method they chose was to prosecute a company that was just trying to look out for their customers. Companies like 5 pawn are making it easier for the government to step in and destroy this industry.

 

[JohnD0406]

I'm confident the FDA will not take care of this perceived problem and am highly interested in wagering with anyone who is expressing confidence that FDA will provide adequate solution. I predict things will be worse under FDA jurisdiction. Let me know if such a wager interests you.

The FDA has known about the dangers of DA/AP for a long time. I do believe they will restrict e-liquid manufacturers to not selling liquids containing those chemicals. But my guess is as good as anyone's guess as to what the FDA have planned for us. No, I don't believe OVERALL that the FDA regulations will be better for us, but in regards to the safety of e-liquids, I do. I wish it weren't necessary, but as multiple e-liquid manufacturers have proven by lying to their customers, it seems it is necessary.

 

[bman1977]

I will not back off. They called in lawyers on a company that had testing done on quite a few e liquids to protect their customers. There are many better ways for them to have handled that situation. The method they chose was to prosecute a company that was just trying to look out for their customers. Companies like 5 pawn are making it easier for the government to step in and destroy this industry.

How can you lab test something where there are no standards for testing? Like I said its the wild west. No one knows. I'm not going to argue this anymore.

The real question I have is, When is 5 Pawns coming out with a max VG for us sub-ohmers?

I love their Gambit and have yet to find an apple pie thats good.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Welcome to the forum Rob.
I'm a bit taken aback at the confrontational tone of some posters here. If I was that worried about the ingredients of an eliquid I simply wouldn't vape it - not go on the attack.

There are those who are worried about those ingredients, who did vape it because they were not aware they were present. I'm one of them albeit only a small amount.
There are those who believe that since concern about AP and DA in ejuice has been a topic for years now, that a company that puts them in their juice should proactively disclose that. I'm one of them.
There are those who feel that having an absurd amount of either or both, while telling those who asked that they do not contain them, is a scandal that hurts the entire industry and is likely to stimulate quicker and more stifling government intervention in the industry. I am one of them.

If I pee'd in your wheaties, and didn't tell you, and you ate them, you would be angry.
If I pee'd in your wheaties, and you asked me if I did, and I said no, and you ate them, and then tested them, and found out that not only did I pee in your wheaties but I pee'd a LOT in your wheaties, you would be much, much angrier.

 

[JohnD0406]

You keep on with the being lied to. By whom? Five Pawns never lied to me or to any of their customers as far as I know.

Well then you haven't done your homework, or read my first post in this thread. Many people, myself included, reached out to Five Pawns via email, asking if their liquids contained any DA/AP, and if they could provide test results. They would not provide test results, but stated their liquids contained absolutely no DA/AP. Now they post their own test results which show they have a LOT of DA. So, while they didn't make a public statement on their website like Suicide Bunny did, they did answer a lot of emails - many of those have been posted on reddit. I will not be posting my email just yet, as I personally know the person from Five Pawns who sent it. I hope that clears up your question of how Five Pawns has been lying to customers.

 

[JohnD0406]

You are missing the most important part. 5 pawns LIED to their customers. They advertised false information about their products. That alone should sent them to jail and close their doors for good.

I want ANSWERS - I do NOT want Five Pawns to close their doors. I DO like their flavors, and would LOVE to have AP-free versions. I hope Five Pawns pulls through this, realizing their mistakes, owning up to them, and moving forward in the right direction. Let's not be out to get them - let's help them move in the right direction.

 

[JohnD0406]

At one point in time, it was on their website that their products were 100% free of da and ap.

I don't remember that, but if true, ouch. Perhaps google or the wayback machine can help prove this one.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

How can you lab test something where there are no standards for testing? Like I said its the wild west. No one knows. I'm not going to argue this anymore.

That's obfuscation. GC testing shows that there either is or isn't, and how much. There are several methods of GC testing. There is an article on the suitability of various forms of GC testing here: GC Solutions #12: The Flame Ionization Detector – Part 2 - Separation Science :: Premier Learning for Analytical Chemists

It shows that diketones are best tested using GC/MS rather than GC/FID. GC/FID fairly consistently will show a lower level of diketones because it is an oxygenated compound. Of course, Five Pawns has chosen to test using GC/FID. The results obtained by cloud9 were from GC/MS testing from a RETAIL sample. The results obtained by 5 pawns were GC/FID from a batch THEY supplied. Whose should I trust more? Let's not forget that 5pawns has already jumped the shark on the trust issue as well.