Five Pawns now on ECF

[WillyZee]

I don't think they are going to find the DAP levels in eliquid as harmful as some people are making them out to be ... including Dr. F.

I am not in denial ... I just don't believe we will ever see serious lung problems develop from vaping.

Even if five pawns is your ADV.

 

[Racehorse]

Also the last cigarette commercial on TV aired one minute before midnight on January 2, 1971, The “Public Health Cigarette Smoking Act” went into effect. This law banned the advertising of cigarettes and tobacco product on television and radio.

My mom had already been smoking for 30 years by 1971.

To say we were lied by BT into thinking cigarettes was not dangerous is a total misrepresentation of the facts. We knew the dangers and we still smoked.

Also, your statement that "we knew the dangers and still smoked" is exactly what supports my present argument.

Many people, including Dr. F, believe that vaping AP and DA "is" somewhat dangerous. He also said that it is entirely avoidable, i.e. neither of those components NEED to be in ejuice.

So, are you saying we should just give up vaping, rather than pursue the CHOICE of not vaping DA and AP laden eliquids?

Because, by vaping them we feel we would essentially be doing the same thing we did when we kept smoking.

 

[Racehorse]

I don't think they are going to find the DAP levels in eLiquid as harmful as some people are making them out to be ... including Dr. F.

I am not in denial ... I just don't believe we will ever see serious lung problems develop from vaping.

Even if Five Pawns is your ADV.

That may very well be true. OTOH, it could end up being a different chemical that we don't even know about yet.

I cut down some trees before the straight winds and tornadoes started here in Spring. Can you believe, it was the tree I wasn't worried about that came toppling down?

But again Willy, and I don't know how many times this needs to be said, its NOT about whether they will prove to be harmful or not harmful. It's about giving consumers the information that it is in their eliquid and we know it is detectable using a test. This has just always seemed like a very simple request to me.

 

[Pinggolfer]

Many people, including Dr. F, believe that vaping AP and DA "is" somewhat dangerous. He also said that it is entirely avoidable, i.e. neither of those components NEED to be in ejuice.

So, are you saying we should just give up vaping, rather than pursue the CHOICE of not vaping DA and AP laden eliquids?

And Five Pawns has helped fund Dr F's research. They are not running away, but looking for what are safe standards all vendors can follow. If you are aware of other juice vendors contributing to Dr F please list them as they should be recognized.

My mom had already been smoking for 30 years by 1971.

My dad started smoking during WW II in the pacific We all have stories but as RB stated if was 1957 when the public knew the dangers of smoking. Every family has lost members because of smoking. We continue to elect representatives who continue to take money from BT. Those are the ones who need to be attacked.

 

[Jman8]

The "x" in "x smokers" is the operative word. We do not smoke anymore, and one of the reasons is because we found out about the dangers while Big Tobacco way lying to us for so many decades.

Many vapers do not want vaping to take from them what cigarettes did.

To me, this is getting near the crux of the issue. Not quite there in this assertion, but pretty close.

When I went cold turkey for 8 years, there were very few points where I put the onus of my health issues from cigarette smoking on BT. Instead, I put it on myself either mostly or entirely. During that time, I routinely saw a divide in world culture (which goes well beyond smoking) where some feel it was "them" that did this to me, and couldn't plausibly be anything I did to myself. The other position, the one I had (and still maintain) is that I did this to myself, via desire and choice.

I challenge you or anyone to backup of this claim of BT lying to us. I'm fairly sure you can, but it took me until vaping to really look into what that assertion was about, and it is very much about BT appeasing segment of consumers that are being incredibly manipulated by ANTZ factor to believe that BT is out to harm them. Here in 2015, in vaping community, that isn't news. It is very well known that ANTZ seeks to demonize its opposition at all turns. We've seen this with vaping, and we've seen vapers come together to rightfully question the methodologies that are put into popular articles. We now know this is part of an orchestrated campaign to paint industry in as bad of a light as possible.

Really any move BT made circa 1960's, short of closing their doors and never selling smokes again, was going to be scrutinized and attacked on basis of "you are harming your consumers." Because consumers continued to purchase/use despite that becoming popular information, the campaign was then moved to, "you are harming others near you when you use." To this day, some vapers accept SHS as dangerous, based on really nothing more than, "yeah, I see how SHS can be annoying."

So, I'm really up for this information around BT lied to us being presented in open discussion, for I think it matters significantly to the path forward for vaping, and particularly matters in a thread (or threads) where it is perceived that a vaping vendor lied to us and is at the level of they are intentionally harming us. Perhaps when that is fully disclosed and an actual debate occurs around this, then we can get to the crux of the matter, in which we properly discern who did this to you, and/or what role does the consumer play in their desire to use?

"without a care in the world" phrase would almost be painful to hear, by somebody like my Mom, who is dying slowly from a smoking-related lung disease.

Such comments, meant to elicit an emotional response, would be dealt with differently were the reasonable discussion around this permitted, and not held back because someone may still be grieving over Mom.

Look, I am very happy that you can and will continue to vape what you love. Keep in mind that there are others who also want the same thing ------ CHOICE ------ the choice not to vape diketones. In order to do that, we need the information we ask for.

Look, you can get that information today if you make the CHOICE to do your own testing. That you do not and feel this is entirely on vendors shows you are ripe for being manipulated with thoughts of betrayal and "they" are out to get you man. "They" are greedy, evil, hurtful, deceitful people who do not have your best interests at heart. Trust the anti-smoking, anti-vaping coalition, for "we" are all about "public health."

 

[Jman8]

But again Willy, and I don't know how many times this needs to be said, its NOT about whether they will prove to be harmful or not harmful. It's about giving consumers the information that it is in their eliquid and we know it is detectable using a test. This has just always seemed like a very simple request to me.

It's odd to me how this is a "simple request" when asked of the vendors, but an unrealistic, ginormus request when consumer is asked to do the test. Suddenly, not so simple or too terribly expensive. It's pennies for vendors, but billions of dollars for consumers.

The issue with the request is that once you go down that road, there will ALWAYS be people who feel not enough information is being properly disclosed. Whether or not it is in eLiquid is one item of concern. Some say this is all we want (as if the we encompasses everyone looking at this issue, which in reality it does not). Whether it is in eLiquid and below acceptable safe limits, which are borrowed from data on factory workers, is another item of concern. Some say this is all we want. Whether or not vendors will publish full lab results showing the specific amounts of each compound is yet another concern. Some say this is all we want. Whether the ingredients have met the magical 30 year determination of safety studies is but another concern. Some say this is all we want.

Within last 10 years, everyone reading this that vapes, was handed to them, on a silver platter, the ability to engage in a smoking like activity, to squarely overcome addiction to cigarettes. Even ANTZ acknowledges this is far less harmful than smoking. Even ANTZ says this. Even ANTZ! One would thing this would be enough for the "all we ever wanted" crowd. Instead, the goal posts keep changing. So, you can sit here and say, "now all we want is x" and pretend like this includes everyone. It does not. The "all we ever wanted" thing will shift again, and again, and again, without end, costing someone millions of dollars. And arguably lead to less safe product. In fact, I believe it will be less safe and have a running wager with anyone that disputes this.

Why will no one take me up on this type of wager if "all they really want" is what is better than what we have now?

 

[Rossum]

I would agree with this statement, if you quit smoking on June 12, 1957, when Surgeon General Leroy E. Burney declared it the official position of the U.S. Public Health Service that the evidence pointed to a causal relationship between smoking and lung cancer.

From that date forward, anyone who smoked cigarettes became well aware of the link between smoking and lung disease. We just chose for a myriad of reasons (total addiction for example and no other options available) to believe it happened to other people, not us.

And how long have we known that the evidence points to a causal relationship between the inhalation of diketones and permanent, irreversible lung damage? I can find threads about right here on ECF dating back to at least 2010. Yet some companies still use flavorings that they know contain very high levels of these substances. I'm actually OK with that, if they want to sell that and you want to buy it and use it, that's between you and them. What I'm absolutely not OK with is when such companies have done testing, know that high levels of diketones are present in their product, but still and tell consumers who explicitly ask, "Nope, there are no diketones in our juice."

Here's my question to Five Pawns: How long would you guys have continued to hide your own test results and deny that diketones are present in your products if nobody had published independent test results?

 

[rbrylawski]

And how long have we known that the evidence points to a causal relationship between the inhalation of diketones and permanent, irreversible lung damage? I can find threads about right here on ECF dating back to at least 2010. Yet some companies still use flavorings that they know contain very high levels of these substances. I'm actually OK with that, if they want to sell that and you want to buy it and use it, that's between you and them. What I'm absolutely not OK with is when such companies have done testing, know that high levels of diketones are present in their product, but still and tell consumers who explicitly ask, "Nope, there are no diketones in our juice."

Here's my question to Five Pawns: How long would you guys have continued to hide your own test results and deny that diketones are present in your products if nobody had published independent test results?

Maybe you can enlighten us with the factual causal relationship between the inhalation of diketones and permanent, irreversible lung damage from e-juice containing diketones. Can you do that?

 

[Pinggolfer]

Maybe you can enlighten us with the factual causal relationship between the inhalation of diketones and permanent, irreversible lung damage from e-juice containing diketones. Can you do that?

No he can't and we are well aware of the countless millions spent on smoking and lung and heart disease.

Rossum said. Here's my question to Five Pawns: How long would you guys have continued to hide your own test results and deny that diketones are present in your products if nobody had published independent test results?

{Moderated}

 

[Racehorse]

And Five Pawns has helped fund Dr F's research. They are not running away

You may have noticed that in this topic, I was not one of the posters who was rude or beat up on the 5P guy.

As a matter of fact, I said I gave him kudos for coming on.

I just would ask them the same thing I ask all vendors I am thinking of purchasing from: Is there DA or AP in the eliquid, and in what quantity.

I am very loyal to 2 vendors I have been using for years, and they were not offended that I asked. As a matter of fact, they knocked themselves out to show me test results, and also helped me choose the eliquid in their lines that most closely "fit" my vaping goals and needs.

Nobody made it a witch hunt, and nobody argued with me about dangerous/not dangerous. They just listened to my needs, and delivered to me what I said I wanted to spend MY MONEY ON.

It was all pretty simple, transparent, and the outcome was a good result for all of us. They get to keep me as a customer, and I get to vape what I like.

 

[Pinggolfer]

You may have noticed that in this topic, I was not one of the posters who was rude or beat up on the 5P guy.

As a matter of fact, I said I gave him kudos for coming on.

I never said you were not respectable just the opposite. I wish other would follow your lead.

 

[Mr.Mann]

You may have noticed that in this topic, I was not one of the posters who was rude or beat up on the 5P guy.

As a matter of fact, I said I gave him kudos for coming on.

I just would ask them the same thing I ask all vendors I am thinking of purchasing from: Is there DA or AP in the eliquid, and in what quantity.

I am very loyal to 2 vendors I have been using for years, and they were not offended that I asked. As a matter of fact, they knocked themselves out to show me test results, and also helped me choose the eliquid in their lines that most closely "fit" my vaping goals and needs.

Nobody made it a witch hunt, and nobody argued with me about dangerous/not dangerous. They just listened to my needs, and delivered to me what I said I wanted to spend MY MONEY ON.

It was all pretty simple, transparent, and the outcome was a good result for all of us. They get to keep me as a customer, and I get to vape what I like.

As I've said before, there is no hunt or chase when there is no hiding or running.

Couldn't agree more and I am truly worried about all the internal fighting in this industry (both with and without respect to Five Pawns) when the biggest and baddest fight we have (FDA Deeming Regs) is in the 11th hour. I can only hope we aren't proving to the FDA that the industry as we know it today is an unsustainable one. Until then Five Pawns will be keeping up the good fight and do whatever we possibly can for the viability of this industry.

The back-and-forth is par for the course when dealing with any industry -- especially in the age of the internet. It is a shame though that the community aspect is no longer all that communal. It's simply an industry at this point with elements of what it used to be. But, yes! Our industry is completely in trouble right now, but I highly doubt--no, I firmly believe--that this has nothing to do with in-fighting (no matter how bloody the fight, though some of the fighting is surely dirty).

We've been under attack since vaping first came to be and it's finally coming to a boiling point at a time when vaping has grown into what it has. They never expected vaping to be as large as it is, and that is the issue, not whether people that vape all sing kumbaya. If anyone imagines the FDA would sit together and say, "but they are all so friendly, we should just leave them alone", I got a bridge to sell. What is happening in places like Arkansas (and slated for other places) has nothing to do with in-fighting.

But to your larger point, I would expect nothing less than 5P fighting the good fight. You all are a powerhouse and we do need companies like you in the ring.

[I would've responded to this sooner, but I don't always get notifications on the new forum. Grr. So sorry if this is already been addressed. I just had to say this.]

 

[zoiDman]

... Yet some companies still use flavorings that they know contain very high levels of these substances. I'm actually OK with that, if they want to sell that and you want to buy it and use it, that's between you and them. What I'm absolutely not OK with is when such companies have done testing, know that high levels of diketones are present in their product, but still and tell consumers who explicitly ask, "Nope, there are no diketones in our juice."

...

Isn't this what is All Really Comes Down To?

Someone posted this in Another Thread...

"It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice."

I think it sums up what a Lot of us Feel.

 

[Woofer]

It is this simple, did 5 pawns lie? Yes or no.

 

[JohnD0406]

"It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice."

Exactly. I love Five Pawns flavors. I've vaped at least 3 bottles of every flavor, and 20 bottles of my favorites. Keeping up with current science and becoming aware of the dangers of diketones, I started asking questions. I asked manufacturers to provide test results. I asked vendors if they had test results for the juices they sell. Getting an answer from Five Pawns that they do not contain any diketones was a temporary peace of mind, but I still wanted test results. I did not get them. Russ (from ClickBang) asked and did not get them - actually, he was promised test results and then communication ended. In the meantime, he went after Suicide Bunny and that story is history. Too bad he didn't go after Five Pawns when communications stopped. Anyway, Cloud9 asked for test results. Point is, a lot of people asked, some were promised, and nobody got them, so Cloud9 did their own tests. That story is history now too.

I'll respond in public to several PM's I've received accusing me of a few things from this thread. I'll remind you, as I've posted in previous replies here, I was a fan of Five Pawns. I understand the comments about those who have never and will never use their product coming here to bash them - they should not be here really. But, I am/was a customer, I have potentially done permanent damage to my lungs, was lied to, and had a right to know if they had any in their liquids. I don't judge anyone who continues to use their products - it's your right to know, and it's your right to make a choice. Many of us were denied that right, and therein lies the issue.

I also never said I would never use their products again. On the contrary, I've already stated in a previous reply I would buy their liquids again if they reformulated to remove the diketones and backed it up with test results. Ask yourself why Five Pawns were repeatedly testing their liquids for diketones, with a method they felt was satisfactory (so the methodology argument becomes irrelevant), getting very high positive results (they must have known they had by far the highest levels of any juice tested to date, including the SB results), but not providing those results to consumers or vendors when asked, but instead telling people they would provide test results, followed by a series of excuses, and then stopping communication altogether. Russ (from ClickBang) aired all the voicemails he received from Five Pawns in one of his podcasts, so you don't have to just take his word for it.

five-pawns-shame-shame-shame
Russ starts reading emails around 13:45, but plays voicemail from Gavin at 16:00 if you don't have 3 minutes to spare.

 

[AstroTurf]

Russ is a poor poor poor example of the majority of vapers...

And does not represent me in any way shape or form.

Jim

 

[zoiDman]

... But, I am/was a customer, I have potentially done permanent damage to my lungs, was lied to, and had a right to know if they had any in their liquids. I don't judge anyone who continues to use their products - it's your right to know, and it's your right to make a choice. Many of us were denied that right, and therein lies the issue.

...

I Fully Agree with this. I feel you Have the Right to be Given an Honest assessment of what is in ANY e-Liquid that you want to put into your Lungs.

If a Company wants to say, when Asked, that Yes, our e-liquids have been Tested and have Shown to contain 910 ug/ml of Acetyl Propionyl. A Sky High amount by anyone's standards. I have No Problem with this. The Buyer can make there own Choice.

But to Tell Customer and or Retail Distributors that there No Diketones in their e-Liquids?

Is this the way we want e-Liquid OEM's to Operate?

And is this a Practice that can in Any Way help a community that is Trying to Fend Off coming FDA Regulations?

 

[Jman8]

Can you/anyone please show where people were promised test results from 5P? The SoundClick pieces doesn't seem to reflect this, which is a shame, shame, shame.

The right to know what's in your eLiquid starts with you. Doesn't have to end with you, but it does rightfully start with you. If it does not include you doing anything, then arguably you will never know. I'd say, firmly, it is factually relevant that you will never know. Thus this denial of right thing that keeps popping up is, in fact, disingenuous.

Once you find issue or take issue with 5P, I see no problem with confronting them directly on the perceived problem. But once it enters into public discourse, I do see problems with those who are espousing things such as choice, right to know and lying when they are in essence projecting their own shortcomings onto vendor/industry. Travel that road with a sword and prepare to do battle with those who aren't so enamored with an outer solution to your trumped up concerns.

 

[LittleBird]

Five Pawns have said there is AP in their juice, and have provided test results that so demonstrate. Each of us will choose whether to vape Five Pawns juice as is, to wait for reformulation and associated test results, or to vape something else. That there is AP, and that some folks believe they were misled, is water under the bridge. That ship has sailed; neither this vendor or any other can change that. There is no Tardis (much to my chagrin!). Why, then, continue to belabor the point? Somehow, I suspect Rob got the message.

 

[Jman8]

Someone posted this in Another Thread...

"It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice."

I think it sums up what a Lot of us Feel.

And what the Still Blowing Smoke campaign is for.

"Fully informed" is a wondrous thing when the consumer need do nothing and industry must do everything to appease the multiple variations of "this is all we are asking for!"