Five Pawns now on ECF

[LouisLeBeau]

love your idea to attempt to take another juice vendor down. You'll be doing it until BT is the only vendor left you won't be able to take down. We will all be back at the gas station buying our ejuice.

Just because YOUR favorite vendor got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, doesn't make every other vendor equally nefarious. It's THIS VERY assertion or notion that has those thirsty for blood, wanting to quench that thirst. Keep feeding it. You're doing your buddies a helluva favor.

And IF, as you suggest, every vendor is adding potentially harmful ingredients to their juice and willfully denying it? And we end up with just BT? Well, the old idiom then applies. 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't'. I'd just as soon we rid this industry of those who make this scenario even plausible.

 

[GoBlue88]

It is without question impractical. Disposed. Best would be that the manufacturers themselves test. They should be testing anyway, to make sure that ingredient levels are correct, and that no other unwanted or harmful chemicals or additives are somehow making their way into the production stream. That's called QC, and if a company selling products for consumption aren't engaging in any QC, NONE of us should want anything to do with them. So if they are testing, as they should, there is no cause to not release the results. Simple as that.

If a manufacturer wants to refuse to test, or provide the results, then those next in the chain of liability for the product is the resellers. I sure don't blame them for testing in the absence of results from the manufacturers. Costco does this regularly with all consumables, whether tests are supplied are not. It is being responsible and caring for their customers. It's built into the price of the goods, and if you don't like it, YOU can shop somewhere else.

If a manufacturer DOES refuse to supply the results, let alone DENY their existence, thus placing the onus on the retailer, and a retailer then has it tested? It is rather disingenuous and fraudulent of the manufacturer to THEN cry foul, and provide their own, lower, results.

Lower, yet still unacceptably high according to scientists who study the topic.


I said it in an earlier post but it hasn't gained much traction:

Vaping is here to stay. Perhaps it will evolve, but it won't be gone. 5P should bite the bullet, re-formulate to get non detectable levels of DA/AP and say "we were wrong, now we're right. We're DA/AP free and anyone can test, and we test too"

The way their handling it now by acting like their litigiousness towards C9 was totally cool while publishing high DA/AP content according to their own testing is the worst of both worlds. It's like "We're litigious and anti-transparency, never mind were pro transparency... But that transparency (revealing own test results) reveals information that still supports the crux of the information we wanted to bury... Too high levels of DA/AP".

Reputations last. The longer this drags out the harder the rep will be to shake. I bet Chrysler cars are a lot closer in quality to their competitors than most people believe, but they were so bad for so long that I can rattle off dozens of people who wouldn't touch a Chrysler for the rest of their life. And I lived outside detroit for 5 years! Eat it now, put all the cards on the table, make the changes, and move on.

5P is like Chrysler making sure their transmissions blow at 80K miles instead of 50K miles. If you want to be competitive, don't take half measures. Then 10 years from now when 5P is the premier high end ejuice this will all be in the past.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

No No Wolverine. You're wrong. The owners of Five Pawns should continue to parse words carefully, apply all legal remedies available to stifle and obfuscate the truth, and allow us to then continue to debate this for years to come. It's the only way that Five Pawns can ever hope to regain the public's trust. Where did you get your education? (go blue!)

Edit: Besides, it's only been a month, and new members who know other non-member vapers continue to sign onto ECF EVERY DAY. We may never run out of fresh ideas and ideologies to toss around here. Eventually, SOMEONE is going to come along with a rock-solid theory of why this company should be trusted going forward. Do they not teach you the Infinite Monkey Theorem there?

 

[Jman8]

It is without question impractical.

And yet, many consumers are doing this, according to Dr. F. and Dr. Gillman.

Not all consumers, just like not all vendors. But some are. And if some can, then it is not without question impractical for any. It may be argued that it is impractical for all consumers, just as I would argue it is impractical for all vendors.

 

[Rossum]

Good luck with that. I think you'll want to lawyer up along the way.

Well, that's an acceptable level of risk to me. I think you understand that concept.

It's the various versions of "all I want" that is the problem for industry, and not really the DA/AP issue. Is this the first issue to come to the attention of industry that what they offer to consumers may be potentially harmful? Does anyone reading this think it'll be the last one?

Nope. But it's any industry's job to respond to what its customers want. If one vendor won't, another will. That's what happens in a free market. Of course the first step is for consumers to TELL vendors what they want.

And so, how does all of this move the consumers closer to resolution of the issue? Your resolution equals transparency. We now have indication that 5P has the compounds when there was reason to believe they did not (based on erroneous claims). That seems like a very teeny tiny step, but I'll grant that it is a teeny tiny step closer

How do you move a mountain? One steam-shovel full at a time. It may take a while, but it won't happen at all if we don't start digging.

And I'll keep making the point that if vendors are solely doing testing, then consumers will never (actually) know. Thus is arguably a far worse way, but I don't mind agreeing to disagree on this one as I have principles of science to back up my position, and the other side has principles of trust/faith to back up theirs. How's trust and faith working out so far for the consumer with this issue?

I don't think any manufacturer would be so stupid as to publish outright fraudulent test results. I mean look at the poop-storm certain vendors have found themselves in for disseminating "inaccurate information", and I'd expect lawyers to round up a class in short order. A good solution might be to have a trade association handle the testing.

 

[Jman8]

Something that I believe was missed and reeks of PR play was mention by 5P of (I'm paraphrasing here)

I find everything that appeared after this point to be disputable. C9 stepped in it, and got called out for stepping in it. They acknowledge the significant error they made, which was to rely on trust rather than do their own testing. They are now unlikely to make that mistake again, even while it may be impractical for them to have to test everything.

 

[Jman8]

I'd just as soon we rid this industry of those who make this scenario even plausible.

C'mon FDA deeming!

Is what I hear you saying.

 

[faeriekitsune]

Just pulling this forward from page 7 because I do want some answers, other than the argument going on.
@Rob Fitz

Hi Rob.

I just wanna say thanks for coming here to talk to us even though it seems to have exploded into arguments.

I love your Castle Long, Perpetual Check, and Queenside. I only buy them for special occasions as the price is a bit out of my range though. (I have bottles from batches dating 7/1/14 I'm still enjoying ...although I'm almost out of Castle... )

I will admit the whole DA/AP thing worries me, but overall vaping is much less harmful than my pack a day habit was. The numbers I saw from Cloud 9 shocked me a bit, but I guessed they were at least present due to the nature of the flavors.

I would like to know a few things though:

• Are there any plans to expand the flavor lines?
• Are there any plans to reformulate the current lines to low/no DA/AP other than the PG alternative line? (I like the current PG/VG line.)
  • Will the current line still be available for consumers who simply don't care about diketones and like it?
• When are you going to start selling larger quantities?

Thanks and here's to hoping.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

C'mon FDA deeming!
Is what I hear you saying.

No Senator McCarthy from the Great State of Wisconsin, I am not, nor have I ever been a member or in any way affiliated with the communist.. err... Antz, party. What I am most vehemently for now however, is retailers testing the products of manufacturers who refuse to do so or divulge this information. All the obfuscation and rhetoric aside, I would consider these results FAR more "independent and reliable" than manufacturers testing their own hand picked samples.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Hi Fairie, I'm not Rob but I can certainly understand your frustration in not having your legitimate questions addressed. I can't be sure of 5P's current plans, but past actions do allow me to speculate:

• Are there any plans to expand the flavor lines?

Good question, and glad you asked. Expanding flavor lines requires significant resources. Currently, as you may well imagine, resources are being strained pursuing legal remedies against retailers who are attempting to look out for the well being of their customers. This is frustrating of course, but priorities are priorities.

• Are there any plans to reformulate the current lines to low/no DA/AP other than the PG alternative line? (I like the current PG/VG line.)

Another excellent question. Due to the sudden awareness of these components in Five Pawns, a Pioneering and Industry Leading solution will likely be found in rebottling the current formulation into 20ml bottles, thus reducing the offending substances by a significant 33.33% per bottle! Knowing that you bend over backwards to obtain this product means 5 pawns will be surely be standing right behind you. This will of course probably not affect pricing. The pricing model until now indicates it will still be the same $27.50

• • Will the current line still be available for consumers who simply don't care about diketones and like it?

Yes, by all indications in the past month, the current line WILL still be available for both consumers who simply don't care about diketones and like it, and those who don't know about the issue and like it as well! You can be assured that at 5 Pawns, the objective is to sell whatever you will buy.

• When are you going to start selling larger quantities?

As I explained above, the easiest method of reducing the quantity of DA and AP in each bottle is by simply reducing the bottle size. There are no immediate plans to my knowledge to actually deliver MORE of these potentially debilitating compounds to your door at one time.

Oh, do you mean larger quantities of some particular ingredients? Well, maybe 5 pawns will have a new website drop down on each juice for this. I'm thinking along the lines of "Graver Shots".

 

[rbrylawski]

Hi Fairie, I'm not Rob but I can certainly understand your frustration in not having your legitimate answers addresses. I can't be sure of 5P's current plans, but past actions do allow me to speculate:

• Are there any plans to expand the flavor lines?

Good question, and glad you asked. Expanding flavor lines requires significant resources. Currently, as you may well imagine, resources are being strained pursuing legal remedies against retailers who are attempting to look out for the well being of their customers. This is frustrating of course, but priorities are priorities.

• Are there any plans to reformulate the current lines to low/no DA/AP other than the PG alternative line? (I like the current PG/VG line.)

Another excellent question. Due to the sudden awareness of these components in Five Pawns, a Pioneering and Industry Leading solution will likely be found in rebottling the current formulation into 20ml bottles, thus reducing the offending substances by a significant 33.33% per bottle! Knowing that you bend over backwards to obtain this product means 5 pawns will be surely be standing right behind you.

• • Will the current line still be available for consumers who simply don't care about diketones and like it?

Yes, by all indications in the past month, the current line WILL still be available for both consumers who simply don't care about diketones and like it, and those who don't know about the issue and like it as well! You can be assured that at 5 Pawns, the objective is to sell whatever you will buy.

• When are you going to start selling larger quantities?

As I explained above, the easiest method of reducing the quantity of DA and AP in each bottle is by simply reducing the bottle size. There are no immediate plans to my knowledge to actually deliver MORE of these potentially debilitating compounds to your door at one time.

Oh, do you mean larger quantities of some particular ingredients? Well, maybe 5 pawns will have a new website drop down on each juice for this. I'm thinking along the lines of "Graver Shots".

Oh, so NOW you're ANSWERING FOR 5P? Really? Really a poor use of your time and mine for even reading this drivel.

 

[Jman8]

No Senator McCarthy from the Great State of Wisconsin, I am not, nor have I ever been a member or in any way affiliated with the communist.. err... Antz, party.

Oh, cause you spoke about getting rid of vendors from the industry, which is in the category of "things an ANTZ might say."

 

[Jman8]

One might think if "potentially harmful compounds" is enough to be scared/cautious of using a product, that a sufficient level of transparency would amount to, "our products may contain diketones."

Ya know, like how pretty much every other industry handles this type of issue.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Oh, so NOW you're ANSWERING FOR 5P? Really. Really a poor use of your time and mine for even reading this drivel.

No no, merely speculating as to what the answers would be if Five Pawns were actually answering questions on this thread, and others were standing back waiting for them to be answered.
Answering for five pawns and wasting time? There seems to be a WHOLE LOT of that going on in this thread. Perhaps it is time those of us with questions to be answered, join the fun.

Not really getting anywhere? Perhaps, but it's amusing the hell outta me. What's your excuse?

 

[JohnD0406]

Oh, so NOW you're ANSWERING FOR 5P? Really. Really a poor use of your time and mine for even reading this drivel.

Honestly rbrylawski, I'm not sure why you're wasting your time over here in the first place, since you've never used Five Pawns liquids, and never will. Some of us have a vested interest in this specific topic, which is why I'm wasting MY time over here Just sayin' (in a friendly way, I hope) - curious why people do that.

Oh, and the post you replied to was meant to be funny, and I got a chuckle out of reading it. Hopefully nobody took it too seriously.

 

[rbrylawski]

No no, merely speculating as to what the answers would be if Five Pawns were actually answering questions on this thread, and others were standing back waiting for them to be answered.
Answering for five pawns and wasting time? There seems to be a WHOLE LOT of that going on in this thread. Perhaps it is time those of us with questions to be answered, join the fun.

Sorry, not interested in bashing Five Pawns. You've done a good job of that all by yourself. And yes, I know you don't, nor could you, speak for 5P.

 

[rbrylawski]

Honestly rbrylawski, I'm not sure why you're wasting your time over here in the first place, since you've never used Five Pawns liquids, and never will. Some of us have a vested interest in this specific topic, which is why I'm wasting MY time over here Just sayin' (in a friendly way, I hope) - curious why people do that.

Oh, and the post you replied to was meant to be funny, and I got a chuckle out of reading it. Hopefully nobody took it too seriously.

My dear John. I have a vested interest in e-juice, regardless of who sells it. And the funny post, which you got a chuckle out of was in poor taste and honestly demeans us as a community. Yes, oh yes it does.

 

[Rossum]

One might think if "potentially harmful compounds" is enough to be scared/cautious of using a product, that a sufficient level of transparency would amount to, "our products may contain diketones."

That would be OK with me, because if a company is willing to say that, then I don't think they'd have much luck pursuing legal remedies against someone who had those products independently tested and published the results.

 

[Jman8]

Chose to delete what was here cause, well feel it was in poor taste, like I feel post [HASHTAG]#291[/HASHTAG] is in poor taste.

Post [HASHTAG]#305[/HASHTAG] contains much of what was here anyway.

Really hope thread can get back on track of asking legitimate, non hyperbolic questions to 5P and refrain from witch hunting.

 

[zoiDman]

I think we need more Rob.

And less Members.