EU Austrian court snuffs out planned e-cigarette restriction

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oplholik

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jpargana

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All in all, it is a good thing that the people who are trying to kill the e-cig industry clearly have no clue about the law and about the very thing they're trying to regulate into oblivium. "Because children", and also "because money", of course. Not that they admit the latter...

Fortunately, a court of law is usually interested in FACTS, that can only be shown to be true by LOGIC and PROPER science.
"Coulds" and "mights" and "our beliefs" and the junk science to support those have no place there.
Using FACTS, it might be difficult to "prove" that the e-cig is even a "tobacco product".
Using FACTS, it can be shown there are good reasons to say it is NOT.
 

Papillon61

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Ooops - I posted a thread with the same title referring to same article. Maybe moderators can delete mine.

On the subject - I think the TPD needs to be attacked in principle - like Totally Wicked is doing. The EU parliament has ratified the directive so in June 2016 it becomes enforceable... meaning states that do not make it part of their national law are liable to fines. This piece-meal legal wrangling on parts of the law are not going to take us anywhere. The TPD needs to be questioned as a whole and at the level of the European Court not national courts.
 

Lemwise

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Using FACTS, it might be difficult to "prove" that the e-cig is even a "tobacco product"
Nicotine is an extremely small component of e-juice, at the highest level it's just 3.6% of the total. Depending on the mix ratio it should be classified as a PG or VG product. What politicians are doing is like calling a car a petrol product.
 
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edyle

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Nicotine is an extremely small component of e-juice, at the highest level it just 3.6% of the total. Depending on the mix ratio it should be classified as a PG or VG product. What politicians are doing is like calling a car a petrol product.

actually it's more like calling a car a cattle product because it *might* have leather seatcovers made from cattle.
 

jpargana

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Nicotine is an extremely small component of e-juice, at the highest level it just 3.6% of the total. Depending on the mix ratio it should be classified as a PG or VG product. What politicians are doing is like calling a car a petrol product.


Not very long ago, I managed to totally confuse an e-cig naysayer on this "nicotine debate".

He believed that the laws regarding the e-cig as tobacco products were "only fair", because "there's nicotine in it", and "no-one knows the possible health effects". He stated that taxing e-cigs like cigarettes was "only fair", because "we don't know the long-term effects of e-cigs, and later, non-smoking people will have to pay for vaper's health care expenses". (I don't thing he knows about the *profit* Govt's already make with tobacco cigarettes, something that, unlike e-cigs so far, is *surelly* going to create health care expenses over the years. And that profit is made despite those expenses).

Pharma NRT's, WITH nicotine, ALL of them?
"They could be considered tobacco products as well, albeit *benign* ones, because they won't hurt you, and because they're medicines. Therefore, they could be a special tobacco product, exempt from tobacco excise taxes" :facepalm:


He was kind of surprised when I told him about tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant... he did not know about the nicotine in those.

So, should tomatoes and potatoes be considered benign tobacco products as well, exempt from tobacco excise taxes?
He thinked for a few moments, and then told me "Of course not. That nicotine is coming from the plant itself, not from tobacco and added later".

Is the tomato nicotine any different from the tobacco nicotine?
"No".
Then why consider e-cigs as a "tobacco product", and not a "tomato product"?
"Well, because it is being *extracted* from tobacco, is it not?". :facepalm:



As you can see, this was going around, and around, and around...

And then, it hit me: INSULIN !!

So, I asked if HAM was a pork product. :)
"Of course", he said, looking a little confused.

Bacon?
"Yes..."

Sausages?
"Yes..." :confused:


What about INSULIN for diabetics?
"What about it? It's a medicine, produced in a lab..." :confused: :confused:

True, it's been produced in a lab since the mid 80's using genetic engineering and Escherichia coli. But *before* that, it was also *extracted* (ex-trac-ted) from the pancreas of pigs and oxen.

Does that mean that insulin was ever considered a "pork product" until then (just like ham and sausages), and only later was considered a "lab product"?
Does that mean that oxen (and PEOPLE) are pigs too, because they also produce insulin, which is a "pork product"?


"What is your point exactly?":confused: :confused: (He did not even know where this was leading to :) )


My point is, a "tobacco product" *should* actually have tobacco in it to be considered as such. Just like ham and bacon, where there's actually "pork" in there.

On the other hand, something with nicotine alone should not be considered a "tobacco product" just because *today*, it is extracted from tobacco for purelly *economical* reasons. There are *other* sources in Nature, and in the future, we *could* be using those sources, or even producing it in a lab, if it turns out *cheaper* to get it that way.



THIS time, he had no quick, smart-a** answer. :lol: :lol:
 

Luisa

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This just is another case when ill thought out laws end up in court and the BS and propaganda gets left in the hallway, the truth usually wins.
That is if someone has at least a million dollars to go to court. How many e-cig companies or consumers can afford that?
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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That is if someone has at least a million dollars to go to court. How many e-cig companies or consumers can afford that?

That's why the different associations exist, a million dollars from one person no. 10 dollars from 100,000 people yes.

It only took 2 companies in 2009/10 to stop the FDAs import ban, one went bankrupt but vaping continued. That enabled vaping to become as large as it is today and I would be willing to bet that there are many companies who would put $50-100,000 in a pot to stop laws that would put them out of business.

:2c:
 

Racehorse

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This just is another case when ill thought out laws end up in court and the BS and propaganda gets left in the hallway

Except you actually have to do something about it, not just talk about it.

Totally Wicked did something about it a few years ago in the UK. They hired lawyers and lobbyists and challenged in court. Yes, they spent the money.

Obviously, vendors in Austria took the bull by the horns, too...founded some associations and had big plans to go to court.....(Members of the Austrian Association of Electronic Cigarette Vendors (VFFED) challenged the controversial amendment at the Constitutional Court as unconstitutional).


Can somebody point me to the lawsuits that have been started by US ecig industry vendors against the ever-increasing bans going on in so many states across the country?

I live in a state where it is no longer legal to order eliquids online. There seemed to be very little reaction to this (other than the usual lip service. )

That is if someone has at least a million dollars to go to court. How many e-cig companies or consumers can afford that?

Oh please.

That is why industries have professional associations.......so that thousands of vendors can combine resources together to get things done.

There is no excuse. This is a multi-billion dollar $$ industry now!

Quit saying there is no $$$.
 
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nebulis

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Obviously, vendors in Austria took the bull by the horns, too...founded some associations and had big plans to go to court.....(Members of the Austrian Association of Electronic Cigarette Vendors (VFFED) challenged the controversial amendment at the Constitutional Court as unconstitutional).

Let me add something, just for fairness' and completeness' sake. Basically, as far as I know, it was just one Austrian vendor who filed this lawsuit (sorry if I use an incorrect term for it). The vendor's association had to be founded in order to be authorised to challenge this amendment. In the meantime, some other vendors werde compliant enough to cooperate with the traditional tobacco shops and sell their stuff there - even well before the Constitutional Court brought about its decision.
 

Luisa

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That's why the different associations exist, a million dollars from one person no. 10 dollars from 100,000 people yes.

It only took 2 companies in 2009/10 to stop the FDAs import ban, one went bankrupt but vaping continued. That enabled vaping to become as large as it is today and I would be willing to bet that there are many companies who would put $50-100,000 in a pot to stop laws that would put them out of business.

:2c:
So you don"t forget,the companies NEVER paid the attorneys. Good lawfirm,but I bet they never take another e-cig lawsuit without substantial money upfront and monthly billing with payment as it proceeds.
 

Luisa

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Except you actually have to do something about it, not just talk about it.

Totally Wicked did something about it a few years ago in the UK. They hired lawyers and lobbyists and challenged in court. Yes, they spent the money.

Obviously, vendors in Austria took the bull by the horns, too...founded some associations and had big plans to go to court.....(Members of the Austrian Association of Electronic Cigarette Vendors (VFFED) challenged the controversial amendment at the Constitutional Court as unconstitutional).


Can somebody point me to the lawsuits that have been started by US ecig industry vendors against the ever-increasing bans going on in so many states across the country?

I live in a state where it is no longer legal to order eliquids online. There seemed to be very little reaction to this (other than the usual lip service. )



Oh please.

That is why industries have professional associations.......so that thousands of vendors can combine resources together to get things done.

There is no excuse. This is a multi-billion dollar $$ industry now!

Quit saying there is no $$$.
Are you saying that the money is there,but is not being used to fight the bans now in effect all over the County? Or have I misunderstood.
 
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