Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[VNeil]

If they smoked 20 years and vaped 6, and got COPD, it would just be attributed to smoking...The new breed of never smokers who are now vaping are the case studies...

But the point is that there are NO PEOPLE reporting new cases of COPD or worsening cases of COPD after they started vaping, regardless of their respiratory condition. You seem to want to ignore the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of any harm being done. Not even a hint. I know that is a tough thing to accept for many naysayers, but it is an inconvenient (for them) truth that cannot be ignored.

 

[stevegmu]

But the point is that there are NO PEOPLE reporting new cases of COPD or worsening cases of COPD after they started vaping, regardless of their respiratory condition. You seem to want to ignore the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of any harm being done. Not even a hint. I know that is a tough thing to accept for many naysayers, but it is an inconvenient (for them) truth that cannot be ignored.

How do we know this? Because they haven't posted a thread about it? I see thread after thread about vapers having breathing and throat issues and it is usually attributed to quitting smoking or PG. The high power sub ohm vaping craze has also just started. For the first 5 years of vaping, 10 watts was considered high...

 

[VNeil]

How do we know this? Because they haven't posted a thread about it? I see thread after thread about vapers having breathing and throat issues and it is usually attributed to quitting smoking or PG. The high power sub ohm vaping craze has also just started. For the first 5 years of vaping, 10 watts was considered high...

We know this because it is highly unlikely, to say the least, that there are legions of vapers suffering significant and permanent respiratory distress but none, NOT ONE is talking about it here, or anywhere else. Nor is it reported in the medical community.

You are, of course, demanding proof of a negative. And as we have discussed previously, that is pure unadulterated propaganda.

And when you point to threads with people complaining about minor irritation that quickly subsides when they stop vaping or stop using PG, and try to weave it into permanent respiratory failure, I have to start questioning your motives. And that is your SOP here. Here is a negative I demand you prove: prove to me you do not work for a vape hater group.

 

[ImThatGuy]

Just a thought...(flameshield on)

It took years and even decades to figure out smoking tobacco is bad so then they impose a sin tax for 'accountability' to keep it legal...

Are we willing to accept an 'accountability tax' or 'sin tax' for vaping because of the 'known' concerns of the flavors and/or ingredients used?

Just a thought...

 

[stevegmu]

We know this because it is highly unlikely, to say the least, that there are legions of vapers suffering significant and permanent respiratory distress but none, NOT ONE is talking about it here, or anywhere else. Nor is it reported in the medical community.

You are, of course, demanding proof of a negative. And as we have discussed previously, that is pure unadulterated propaganda.

And when you point to threads with people complaining about minor irritation that quickly subsides when they stop vaping or stop using PG, and try to weave it into permanent respiratory failure, I have to start questioning your motives. And that is your SOP here. Here is a negative I demand you prove: prove to me you do not work for a vape hater group.

I just dont bury my head in the sand and proclaim vaping harmless... I am a member of ANTS...

 

[zapped]

Just a thought...(flameshield on)

It took years and even decades to figure out smoking tobacco is bad so then they impose a sin tax for 'accountability' to keep it legal...

Are we willing to accept an 'accountability tax' or 'sin tax' for vaping because of the 'known' concerns of the flavors and/or ingredients used?

Just a thought...

Years and years huh?

I call b.s on that statement.

As a former smoker, I knew the first time I smoked a cigarette that it was horrible for me.
So did hundreds of thousands of others.

Yet we continued

Why?

Because many of us got hooked on the first drag.

And it wasnt just from the nicotine. Big Tobacco has admitted publicly to adding other addictive ingredients into cigarettes.

 

[stevegmu]

Tasty ingredients like AP...

 

[zapped]

Tasty ingredients like AP...

Thats a stretch for even a conspiracy theorist.

Vaping is still relatively new, most of us had never even heard of diacetyl or AP until a few scant months ago.

Surely, you arent implying that juice manufacturers are knowingly adding these chemicals to get people hooked on their juice?

 

[nebulis]

And when you point to threads with people complaining about minor irritation that quickly subsides when they stop vaping or stop using PG, and try to weave it into permanent respiratory failure, I have to start questioning your motives. And that is your SOP here. Here is a negative I demand you prove: prove to me you do not work for a vape hater group.

We do not demand any proofs (of not being misanthropes belonging to a people hater group, e.g. ) from persons who do not care about the ingredients in their liquids if they say so, do we?

For me, the term "avoidable risk" says it all. Provided Dr. F. proves he is not member of a vape hater group.

 

[ImThatGuy]

Years and years huh?

I call b.s on that statement.

As a former smoker, I knew the first time I smoked a cigarette that it was horrible for me.
So did hundreds of thousands of others.

Yet we continued

Why?

Because many of us got hooked on the first drag.

And it wasnt just from the nicotine. Big Tobacco has admitted publicly to adding other addictive ingredients into cigarettes.

Yes. Actually years and more years after. Brief History provided by worlded.org
The Mayan Indians of Mexico carved drawings in stone showing tobacco use. These drawings date back to somewhere between 600 to 900 A.D.
Tobacco was the first crop grown for money in North America. In 1612 the settlers of the first American colony in Jamestown, Virginia grew tobacco as a cash crop.
By the 1800's, many people had begun using small amounts of tobacco. Some chewed it. Others smoked it occasionally in a pipe, or they hand-rolled a cigarette or cigar. On the average, people smoked about 40 cigarettes a year. The first commercial cigarettes were made in 1865 by Washington Duke on his 300-acre farm in Raleigh, North Carolina.
In 1964 the Surgeon General of the U.S. (the chief doctor for the country) wrote a report about the dangers of cigarette smoking. He said that the nicotine and tar in cigarettes cause lung cancer. In 1965 the Congress of the U.S. passed the Cigarette Labelling and Advertising Act. It said that every cigarette pack must have a warning label on its side stating "Cigarettes may be hazardous to your health."
By the 1980's, the tobacco companies had come out with new brands of cigarettes with lower amounts of tar and nicotine and improved filters to keep their customers buying and to help reduce their fears. The early 1980's were called the "tar wars" because tobacco companies competed aggressively to make over 100 low tar and "ultra" low tar cigarettes. Each company made and sold many different brands of cigarettes.

So...that's about...2000+ years... So, years after years after years after years, etc.

 

[zapped]

And I still maintain that people knew all along that what they were doing was bad for them.

I've never heard of someone coughing up a lung from inhaling fresh air.

Personal accountability and all...............even if it is highly underrated nowadays.

 

[stevegmu]

Thats a stretch for even a conspiracy theorist.

Vaping is still relatively new, most of us had never even heard of diacetyl or AP until a few scant months ago.

Surely, you arent implying that juice manufacturers are knowingly adding these chemicals to get people hooked on their juice?

I don't know. Custards are very popular...

 

[Vapey_McVape]

You seem to think they worked without protection and were standing over the vats inhaling it all day. If I breathed in burning PVC all day at work for 8-12 hours I would have been dead years ago. Catch a whiff every now and then, maybe not so bad...

Vapers are deliberately inhaling it all day every day, now in large quantities with subohming...

The .02 ppm measurement was what was found in non mixing areas from my understanding, such as office settings. I'm not saying da and ap are not harmful, but in what amounts? If the workers from all the plants that were inspected were breathing in a minimum of 60,000ppm+ over the course of an 8 hour work day how does that translate to vaping? .... the average was something like 2ppm at these plants... That's a number that is 100 times larger... than the .02 which was the lowest detected amount.

 

[stevegmu]

The .02 ppm measurement was what was found in non mixing areas from my understanding, such as office settings. I'm not saying da and ap are not harmful, but in what amounts? If the workers from all the plants that were inspected were breathing in a minimum of 60,000ppm+ over the course of an 8 hour work day how does that translate to vaping? .... the average was something like 2ppm at these plants... That's a number that is 100 times larger... than the .02 which was the lowest detected amount.

I actually don't understand what the factory has to do with vaping. People who work at factories don't stand over vats of chemicals breathing them in for 8 hours. Some vapers are inhaling large quantities of chemicals which a leading researcher in vaping safety has said should not be used and should be avoided. Do you think maybe Dr. F knows what he is taking about? Personally I don't care. I think we need lab rats. I think a group of vapers should be given high-powered mods and unlimited amounts of e-liquids high in diacetyl and AP and studied. I am sure there would be plenty of volunteers...

 

[VNeil]

I just dont bury my head in the sand and proclaim vaping harmless... I am a member of ANTS...

I did not proclaim vaping harmless. I merely stated an undeniable FACT.... after 6 years of vaping history there are no known cases of significant and permanent respiratory failure attributed to vaping. That is a FACT.

It was you who came charging in attacking my statement of fact. Without challenging it in any factual way. I'm out of this discussion because there is nothing left to say here. My statement of fact either stands or it doesn't and if it doesn't I would like to see details of the case(s) of vaping related lung damage. Otherwise I have no interest in debating factless ANTZ talking points. Or religion and philosophy.

 

[stevegmu]

I did not proclaim vaping harmless. I merely stated an undeniable FACT.... after 6 years of vaping history there are no known cases of significant and permanent respiratory failure attributed to vaping. That is a FACT.

It was you who came charging in attacking my statement of fact. Without challenging it in any factual way. I'm out of this discussion because there is nothing left to say here. My statement of fact either stands or it doesn't and if it doesn't I would like to see details of the case(s) of vaping related lung damage. Otherwise I have no interest in debating factless ANTZ talking points. Or religion and philosophy.

I can't prove karma exists, but I know it does. It's ANTS, not ANTZ...

 

[VNeil]

We do not demand any proofs (of not being misanthropes belonging to a people hater group, e.g. ) from persons who do not care about the ingredients in their liquids if they say so, do we?

For me, the term "avoidable risk" says it all. Provided Dr. F. proves he is not member of a vape hater group.

As I have already pointed out, there is no factual evidence that there is any risk to vapers at all. There are no known harmed vapers.

In light of that, Dr. F's opinion here is not science, it is a matter of his Religion and Philosophy. Simply because there is no factual science (in terms of actual known harm to vapers) to back up his opinion.

I have no issue whatsoever with Dr F expressing that opinion. I do take issue with those that hold up his Religious and Philosophical opinion as "science".

 

[nebulis]

As I have already pointed out, there is no factual evidence that there is any risk to vapers at all. There are no known harmed vapers.

In light of that, Dr. F's opinion here is not science, it is a matter of his Religion and Philosophy. .

That there are no known harmed vapers is a statement with very limited value, to say the least. First, because no vapers have been systematically screened, i.e. no studies available and second: vaping is not that old and damages resulting from inhaling bad stuff do not necessarily/noticeably/demonstrateably damage after a couple of years. If we as previous smokers know something then exactly this: For quite a long time nothing happened. That shortness of breath and coughing came considerably later.

For me, to use this non-argument with "no known harmed vapers" is religion ... I never heard of one harmed vaper, so I believe there are none.

 

[VNeil]

That there are no known harmed vapers is a statement with very limited value, to say the least. First, because no vapers have been systematically screened, i.e. no studies available and second: vaping is not that old and damages resulting from inhaling bad stuff do not necessarily/noticeably/demonstrateably damage after a couple of years. If we as previous smokers know something then exactly this: For quite a long time nothing happened. That shortness of breath and coughing came considerably later.

For me, to use this non-argument with "no known harmed vapers" is religion ... I never heard of one harmed vaper, so I believe there are none.

From this CDC discussion of diacetyl:

"People who had worked as mixers for more than 12 months had more shortness of breath with exertion and lower FEV 1 than people who had worked as mixers for less than 12 months."

It is a fact that popcorn lung was not the result of decades of exposure, but roughly a year of exposure resulted in clinical symptoms. It is also a fact that people have been vaping diketones for 6 years now. With no evidence whatsoever of any similar symptoms.

You are free to demand proof of a negative. But the fact is that out of tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of 5 year vape vets, we have not an inkling of a problem. Not one case. There are 200,000 members here, there is not one case reported of significant and irreversible lung damage. That is a fact.

I am not suggesting there will never be a problem, that would require proving a negative. I am merely pointing out that, in this case, the Emperor Has No Clothes, and each time I point out that easily observable fact, it is disputed. It is, in fact, a fact many people seem inordinately uncomfortable with. For whatever reason.

 

[nebulis]

You are free to demand proof of a negative. But the fact is that out of tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of 5 year vape vets, we have not an inkling of a problem. Not one case. There are 200,000 members here, there is not one case reported of significant and irreversible lung damage. That is a fact.

Sorry Vneil - but this proves only that there is not one case *reported* here. And does not prove that there is not one case *existing* now or in some years.