Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[440BB]

A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. I plan on vaping for many years to come, so diketones, which aren't necessary at all to stop smoking for almost all of us, are something to avoid vaping for me.

If I'm wrong about diketones, ten years from now it's no big deal.

If those discouraging concern about diketones are wrong, ten years from now some of us who listened may be suffering.

Easy choice for me.

 

[VNeil]

Sorry Vneil - but this proves only that there is not one case *reported* here. And does not prove that there is not one case *existing* now or in some years.

WHY do the both of you insist on putting words in my mouth? Repeatedly, in the same thread even. Is that your only remaining argument, after trying to argue that facts you find inconvenient are religion?

I NEVER EVER said there are no existing cases of vape related lung damage. In fact I already said it would be impossible to state that, it would essentially be trying to prove a negative. I merely stated a FACT... there are none reported. And that is a FACT, not some religious idea, unless you are totally in denial of the facts.

In terms of diacetyl, those popcorn workers had up to 80% loss of lung function. In that case, you don't need sophisticated tests and grant money to tell you that you have a problem. You can barely make it up a flight of steps. And the process started in the first year, not decades later. If there were legions of vapers with up to 80% loss of lung function that occurred after quitting smoking, doesn't reasonable logic suggest we would hear *something*, some inkling of a problem, some murmuring in the forums, or in the medical journals? But we have... total silence.

You may make of that what you wish. I consider that very strong evidence, even if it falls short of "conclusive". And in all these discussions of diketones that simple fact seems to be ignored. The Emporor rides by, unabashedly naked, and everyone averts their eyes, afraid to see the truth. Or perhaps the truth is inconvenient to their motives and objectives?

 

[VNeil]

A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. I plan on vaping for many years to come, so diketones, which aren't necessary at all to stop smoking for almost all of us, are something to avoid vaping for me.

If I'm wrong about diketones, ten years from now it's no big deal.

If those discouraging concern about diketones are wrong, ten years from now some of us who listened may be suffering.

Easy choice for me.

There is a fallacy in your logic, assuming you are just moving to diketone free flavoring. You are throwing the "we just haven't done this long enough to know" card. And you are also throwing down the "zero acceptable risk card".

Now, the only reason we know anything about diketones is because diacetyl happened to be present in enormous quantities in popcorn factories. The eJuice makers will replace the diketones with other chemicals, which have equally unknown risks. They might just appear safer because they've never permeated food processing plants the way diacetyl did.

If you truly believe "we just haven't done this long enough to know" and you truly believe in "zero acceptable risk" then there is no way you would vape any flavors. There are hundreds of different flavors, and not one of them has been vetted by decades long studies of the inhalation effects. Any one or all of those flavors could cause "A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. "

Just food for thought. I don't think you can justify any favorings as long as you apply all these arguments equally. But I see very few people giving up flavoring entirely.

I personally decided not to worry about diketones, mainly because there is no actual evidence whatsoever of a risk, at the present time, and secondarily because I am not willing, at this time, to give up all flavoring. And after thinking THE FACTS through, I decided that I was either going to use flavors, or I wasn't. Basically all or none. I don't, at this point in time, see any compelling reason (in terms of actual harm to vapers) worthy of giving up all flavors. At some point in the future I could change my mind because I actually have an open mind about all this.

 

[BlueSnake]

My guess on the whole thing is that since it's all speculation anyway, maybe we find out the low sub ohm vaping no matter what's in the juice turns out to be hazardous. Then the whole da/ap scandal turns out to be irrelevant in comparison.

It's all a guessing game at this point anyway. And for those so worried about health effects the only truly safe choice is not to vape, period.

I smoked for nearly 50 years. In comparison, what I'm vaping has to be infinitely less hazardous. And for those that never smoked there is no "safe vaping".

 

[coolerat]

Is it?

I've been pretty supportive of da/ap not being present in juices and for transparency in ingredients present in juices, however a few weeks ago I thought about it and realized that the numbers people were exposed to in the manufacturing settings are enormous.

From my understanding ppm is a measurement of volume, so there are 1 million parts to each ml.

The lowest detectable levels found in the manufacturing settings from what I have read were .02ppm.

Now the average human at rest breathes in approximately 7 to 8 liters of air per minute. If we multiply this number by 60(minutes) and then by 8(hours), the average human would be inhaling between 3360 - 3840 Liters of air within an 8 hour work day (This estimate is low as it is applicable to only resting rate of breathing). We then multiply 3360 (L) * 1000 (ml) and that gives us between 3,360,000 ml - 3,840,000 ml of air inhaled per day.

If the lowest concentration per ml that was detectable in these manufacturing areas was .02ppm that would mean that the lowest amount these workers were inhaling across a 8 hour work day was approximately 67,200 ppm - 76,800 ppm

What are your thoughts on this?

I don't have any facts.

The above is an important statement to me. Cause I don't have any.

I do have beliefs and opinions.

I believe nothing truely bad can be proven even part way about vaping right this minute because the gubmint would make its move on even the tiniest sliver of proof.

I believe vaping is deal we make with the devil to squeeze afew more years of addiction out. I believe most of us could agree that doing nothing would be best.

Just a guess, not a fact/belief/opinion, but most of us feel better vaping then when we smoked?? I guess afew may feel worse but I can't explain that.

I believe if a problem is found its gonna be the flavors. And its gonna be like nailing snot to the wall proving which ones cause people jump around so much. And most of us started with at least some level of damage. I do have COPD and I had it long before I started vaping. And while its much less a problem now its still there and blaming or not blaming vaping is tough to prove.

Nicotine saves lives, just most likely not mine. This can be proven. Cut me off in traffic and my nic level determines if you go home in a bag or not. To me personally I just don't know. My best guess is its harmless in low levels but most likely bad at any level most of us use it. I'd bet 100 innerweb dollars that any level that's safe is a level I would be uninterested in.

PG and VG are the great unknowns. Vaping as we know it kinda depends on those two thing. If either of them is found harmful I think we are screwed.

As the wheel spins we all have to lay our money so to speak but actually our lives down or walk away. The square I'm putting my money down on is high VG, low amounts of nic, low amounts of flavorings with no known bad side and higher wattage to fully vaporize the juice. I believe high nic leads to high flavor use to mask the taste. PG I don't need any studies to prove is bad for me, that stuff is just nasty. To get a decent nic hit with low flavor VG juice I need more power. TC is an option but I'm not completely sold yet.

I believe we are on the right path. I think we got this smoking thing beat. Which of coarse leads to problems with pharma and BT and so on but thats separate. I mean as far as quitting smoking RIGHT NOW is the high water mark.

 

[VNeil]

A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. ...

This is a fallacy, born of vape-hater propaganda. People are not going to wake up 10 or 20 years from now, suddenly realizing they are half dead. Here is what will really happen:

1. If you are so concerned with your health that you are arguing for a zero risk policy here, surely you will have a simple annual physical?

2. A large number of us have been diagnosed with COPD. Those that have will surely be given a "balloon test" with each physical. Or if the doc forgets, or you have never been diagnosed with COPD, surely you can request/demand it. As you should, since you are presumably vitally concerned about your lung function and terribly worried about insidious long term damage from vaping.

3. Your doc will keep historical records, tracking your change in lung capacity

You, individually, may not do any of that. Or I. But collectively, more than enough vapers will do the above, such that they will form a statistically meaningful pool. If, indeed, vaping results in long term degradation in lung function then it will be very obvious to those affected as well as the medical community, long before you personally even notice it. There will be no surprises.

 

[VNeil]

This is a fallacy, born of vape-hater propaganda. People are not going to wake up 10 or 20 years from now, suddenly realizing they are half dead. Here is what will really happen:

1. If you are so concerned with your health that you are arguing for a zero risk policy here, surely you will have a simple annual physical?

2. A large number of us have been diagnosed with COPD. Those that have will surely be given a "balloon test" with each physical. Or if the doc forgets, or you have never been diagnosed with COPD, surely you can request/demand it. As you should, since you are presumably vitally concerned about your lung function and terribly worried about insidious long term damage from vaping.

3. Your doc will keep historical records, tracking your change in lung capacity

You, individually, may not do any of that. Or I. But collectively, more than enough vapers will do the above, such that they will form a statistically meaningful pool. If, indeed, vaping results in long term degradation in lung function then it will be very obvious to those affected as well as the medical community, long before you personally even notice it. There will be no surprises.

Oh yea, almost forgot. This has been going on since the first eCig was vaped, going on 6 years now. Lots of people get annual balloon tests with their routine physicals. Does anyone honestly believe there are legions of vapers with steadily reduced lung function, but no one in the medical community is talking about it? Or the "victims" themselves?

This idea that "we just don't know" and "it needs to be studied" is just a cheering crowd, averting their eyes as the naked emperor passes by. Refusing to acknowledge what is in plain sight.

 

[KattMamma]

If you truly believe "we just haven't done this long enough to know" and you truly believe in "zero acceptable risk" then there is no way you would vape any flavors. There are hundreds of different flavors, and not one of them has been vetted by decades long studies of the inhalation effects. Any one or all of those flavors could cause "A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. "

^^^ This!!

 

[skoony]

For me, to use this non-argument with "no known harmed vapers" is religion ... I never heard of one harmed vaper, so I believe there are none.

no vaper has developed popcorn lung yet but,there has to be one somewhere,right?
we must believe in the harm. it just has to be there,right?
you don't know, they don't know and, i don't know so tha'ts proof there must be something bad
because nobody knows,right?

Sorry Vneil - but this proves only that there is not one case *reported* here. And does not prove that there is not one case *existing* now or in some years.

it doesn't mater, 1 case is statistically meaningless.
if diketones where an issue we would be seeing many,many,cases by now.
frankly i am more worried about leprosy. 100 people a year still contract
it in the states.

regards
mike

 

[nebulis]

If you truly believe "we just haven't done this long enough to know" and you truly believe in "zero acceptable risk" then there is no way you would vape any flavors. There are hundreds of different flavors, and not one of them has been vetted by decades long studies of the inhalation effects. Any one or all of those flavors could cause "A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable or significant for a number of years. " I don't think you can justify any favorings as long as you apply all these arguments equally.

This was not directed to me, but let me give you my answer anyway. Yes, you are right, and I reduced my flavoring radically in every respect, I use just one TPA flavor declared to be free of diketones and I use just a tiny little bit of it. Maybe I will stop flavorings completely. I don't believe in in zero risk (this would mean "no vaping" and would be ridiculous in my eyes for me, after more than 4 decades of smoking), but I do believe in avoiding or at least minimizing unnecessary risks.

But I see very few people giving up flavoring entirely.

No shop advertises vaping without flavoring so the only way to realize that this is a valid option (and the reasons for it) is in forum discussions like this. So it is irrelevant for the individual decision if there are just a few or quite a lot of them because the sheer quantity of nonflavoring vapers is kept low by independent factors, in any case not by lengthy considerations and insight.

I personally decided not to worry about diketones, mainly because there is no actual evidence whatsoever of a risk, at the present time, and secondarily because I am not willing, at this time, to give up all flavoring.

I understand and respect your reasoning and your decision fully.

 

[mcclintock]

This is a fallacy, born of vape-hater propaganda. People are not going to wake up 10 or 20 years from now, suddenly realizing they are half dead. Here is what will really happen:

1. If you are so concerned with your health that you are arguing for a zero risk policy here, surely you will have a simple annual physical?

2. A large number of us have been diagnosed with COPD. Those that have will surely be given a "balloon test" with each physical. Or if the doc forgets, or you have never been diagnosed with COPD, surely you can request/demand it. As you should, since you are presumably vitally concerned about your lung function and terribly worried about insidious long term damage from vaping.

3. Your doc will keep historical records, tracking your change in lung capacity

You, individually, may not do any of that. Or I. But collectively, more than enough vapers will do the above, such that they will form a statistically meaningful pool. If, indeed, vaping results in long term degradation in lung function then it will be very obvious to those affected as well as the medical community, long before you personally even notice it. There will be no surprises.

Plus, the cloud chasing custard users are guinea pigs for the rest of us?

One pesky thing about the diketones is they're an exception to the rule that most chemicals that are bad will taste and smell bad. If the quantity of a flavor is dangerously high, it will probably be unvapable.

According to one report, butter smell was strong within miles of those popcorn factories. Vaping custard might be equivalent to vaping unflavored while standing a mile from a popcorn factory in those days, or sitting next to someone eating it? I used to say "welcome to Cinema (company name)" when someone nuked a batch at work.

 

[Wow1420]

I'm still waiting for the first vaper to be reported to have suffered significant respiratory problems due to vaping. And people have been vaping for 6 years now. Longer, in fact, than some of those popcorn worker's employment in those plants.

But widespread use of high volume / high watt / direct lung inhale vaping is something new. We forget how quickly new devices have appeared in the last year or so.

When I started, only 2.5 years ago, the typical vaper was using top coil clearomizers or cartomizers and going through about 3ml of liquid a day. Bottom coil Evods and Protanks were the new hot thing 2 years ago. Pathetic airflow by today's standard, so MTL ruled. 12 to 15 watts was the normal upper limit on a regulated mod. The high watt / high volume vape has only become common in the last year or two.

So we only know lung problems haven't show up in 6 or 7 years of 3ml MTL style vaping. But we have much less history on the 10 to 20ml a day (or more) direct lung hitting style.

 

[VNeil]

This was not directed to me, but let me give you my answer anyway. Yes, you are right, and I reduced my flavoring radically in every respect, I use just one TPA flavor declared to be free of diketones and I use just a tiny little bit of it. Maybe I will stop flavorings completely. I don't believe in in zero risk (this would mean "no vaping" and would be ridiculous in my eyes for me, after more than 4 decades of smoking), but I do believe in avoiding or at least minimizing unnecessary risks.



No shop advertises vaping without flavoring so the only way to realize that this is a valid option (and the reasons for it) is in forum discussions like this. So it is irrelevant for the individual decision if there are just a few or quite a lot of them because the sheer quantity of nonflavoring vapers is kept low by independent factors, in any case not by lengthy considerations and insight.



I understand and respect your reasoning and your decision fully.

I would argue that the relatively limited availability of unflavored juice is simply a reflection of very limited market demand. If more vapers actually thought through the logic and reasoning of the flavor debate, and demanded unflavored juice, then surely the vendors would supply them. of course, shops would have trouble charging upwards of $1/ml for unflavored juice so, ok, there might be some resistance.

But widespread use of high volume / high watt / direct lung inhale vaping is something new. We forget how quickly new devices have appeared in the last year or so.

When I started, only 2.5 years ago, the typical vaper was using top coil clearomizers or cartomizers and going through about 3ml of liquid a day. Bottom coil Evods and Protanks were the new hot thing 2 years ago. Pathetic airflow by today's standard, so MTL ruled. 12 to 15 watts was the normal upper limit on a regulated mod. The high watt / high volume vape has only become common in the last year or two.

So we only know lung problems haven't show up in 6 or 7 years of 3ml MTL style vaping. But we have much less history on the 10 to 20ml a day (or more) direct lung hitting style.

Yes, if you assume there must be something harmful with vaping, then more vaping = more harm. And there will always be something new to ring your hands over. But it all presupposes there must be some harm involved. There is no science behind that idea, only a lot of propaganda repeated endlessly until it becomes some sort of Orwellian Ultimate Truth.

 

[93gc40]

When ever I see a study saying X is either good for me or bad for me... I wait for the 10 studies disputing the first study. And the 100 disputing the 10. Before I even take the information into consideration.

97% of scientist at one point agreed the Earth was flat and was the center of the universe.. Those same scientists are now telling us about How we are killing ourselves with climate change.......

If the were SO wrong the first time, why are they SO right, NOW.

 

[Wow1420]

Just food for thought. I don't think you can justify any favorings as long as you apply all these arguments equally. But I see very few people giving up flavoring entirely.

No shop advertises vaping without flavoring so the only way to realize that this is a valid option (and the reasons for it) is in forum discussions like this. So it is irrelevant for the individual decision if there are just a few or quite a lot of them because the sheer quantity of nonflavoring vapers is kept low by independent factors, in any case not by lengthy considerations and insight.

Shops are making too much money selling flavored liquid to ever switch to promoting unflavored vaping. But word of mouth seems to be very slowly catching on that unflavored is a decent option.

Personally, when I was chasing flavors, I was never satisfied with any flavor for very long. I had to keep 6 or more tanks going and switch often. And the 6 selections had to keep changing because what I liked one month wasn't so good the next. I finally found my ONE flavor, just menthol, and set aside all the others. Who knows if there's any harm in menthol, but at least there's no diacetyl in it. And for the last 10 days I've only vaped unflavored. Concern over the unknowns of using flavoring led me to this point, but now that I'm here, it's turned into a true preference on my part for using no to low flavoring.

 

[Wow1420]

Yes, if you assume there must be something harmful with vaping, then more vaping = more harm. And there will always be something new to ring your hands over. But it all presupposes there must be some harm involved. There is no science behind that idea, only a lot of propaganda repeated endlessly until it becomes some sort of Orwellian Ultimate Truth.

I'm not claiming there's any harm in vaping. i am only saying that there are still unknowns.

 

[Racehorse]

there are NO PEOPLE reporting new cases of COPD or worsening cases of COPD after they started vaping

You have access to this medical information on individuals ........ how?

Oh, wait, you read anecdotals on internet forums..........I guess that qualifies as a "study" now.

I remember when Dr. F. tested all those eliquids and 10% had more than 100 times higher diacetyl levels than the current safety limits.

"diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1".......so if you have some tests on 100+ people showing they do NOT have reduced FEV1 results while vaping DA/AP heavy eliquids, then post the study up.

 

[440BB]

A tiny bit of damage every day, irreversible and cumulative, will not be noticeable for significant for a number of years.

This is a fallacy, born of vape-hater propaganda.

I choose to avoid inhaling diketones, and you don't. Fair enough. Vape-hater? LOL

 

[skoony]

i am only saying that there are still unknowns.

there are no unknowns. only known's.
More words related to unknown
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• regards
• mike

 

[sparkky1]

Many doctors have been prescribing this for years as a safer alternative to quit smoking so it's gotta be safe :FDA: Anti-smoking drug Chantix linked to more than 500 suicides | Al Jazeera America
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