Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[caramel]

OK...

So the Basis of you Position is because you have Not Seen a Vaper who has Died and then had a Deep Lung Biopsy done which Specifically is looking for Bronchiolitis Obliterans?

Biopsies are performed on living subjects. You may want to look into autopsies instead.

 

[YoursTruli]

The one where millions of people vape all kinds of different devices and juices and flavorings, and after 5 or 6 years no one can seem to find any evidence of lung degradation.

considering the vast majority of vapers at present were or still are smokers what makes you think any respiratory difficulties/lung function issues are not automatically contributed to that or other causes verses vaping which may be the actual cause? As I pointed out before, this is what happened with the popcorn factory workers, they had respiratory issues and illness long before they reached the BO stage that were misdiagnosed, for years and years. So your line of reasoning has no real merit.

 

[englishmick]

All I can tell you is that in the year since I quit smoking my perceived respiratory capability has improved. I did use the word "perceived" in my original statement (and here) because I am aware of what your doctor told you. However, that is not my perception of my own condition. I have not taken any meds for it either. I probably have a more moderate case? I don't know. I decided not to seek treatment (read take possibly unnecessary drugs) unless I felt it necessary, which I do not.

Well my perception is the same as yours, I must have missed the post where you qualified your statement as being perception. I have an early stage of the condition. I stopped taking the drugs after I quit smoking. However if my understanding of the disease is correct it is normal to experience significantly improved lung function after quitting smoking, and I have certainly seen that. However that doesn't mean the lung damage from COPD is reversing, or even stopping, just that the lungs you have left are working better. The amount of lung tissue affected will continue to increase. I expect, rightly or wrongly, to see my lung capacity continue to degrade. If that happens, like you I might take another look at the medications.

If I am right about that then vapers with COPD will indeed see their condition continue to worsen, despite the positive bump that comes from quitting smoking. If so, it will likely be impossible to determine statistically whether vaping has contributed to the decline in lung capacity. Even harder to determine whether one of the long list of flavor chemicals has had any impact.

Since I don't know for sure about diketones and likely never will, I balanced the odds and decided not to partake of them any more. We have to make decisions every day on subjects where the available information is incomplete or contradictory.

 

[VNeil]

OK...

So the Basis of you Position is because you have Not Seen a Vaper who has Died and then had a Deep Lung Biopsy done which Specifically is looking for Bronchiolitis Obliterans?

zoiDman, I made what I believe to be an observation of fact. If you want to dispute it, dispute it with links to people reporting degraded respiratory function due to vaping. Otherwise I have no interest in your strawman arguments and pot shots.

 

[VNeil]

considering the vast majority of vapers at present were or still are smokers what makes you think any respiratory difficulties/lung function issues are not automatically contributed to that or other causes verses vaping which may be the actual cause? As I pointed out before, this is what happened with the popcorn factory workers, they had respiratory issues and illness long before they reached the BO stage that were misdiagnosed, for years and years. So your line of reasoning has no real merit.

If people here are experiencing degraded respiratory function, they will certainly talk about it. Post links to disprove what I said. I am not interested in any further endless strawman arguments.

 

[sparkky1]

Well my perception is the same as yours, I must have missed the post where you qualified your statement as being perception. I have an early stage of the condition. I stopped taking the drugs after I quit smoking. However if my understanding of the disease is correct it is normal to experience significantly improved lung function after quitting smoking, and I have certainly seen that. However that doesn't mean the lung damage from COPD is reversing, or even stopping, just that the lungs you have left are working better. The amount of lung tissue affected will continue to increase. I expect, rightly or wrongly, to see my lung capacity continue to degrade. If that happens, like you I might take another look at the medications.

If I am right about that then vapers with COPD will indeed see their condition continue to worsen, despite the positive bump that comes from quitting smoking. If so, it will likely be impossible to determine statistically whether vaping has contributed to the decline in lung capacity. Even harder to determine whether one of the long list of flavor chemicals has had any impact.

Since I don't know for sure about diketones and likely never will, I balanced the odds and decided not to partake of them any more. We have to make decisions every day on subjects where the available information is incomplete or contradictory.

Smoking's Impact on the Lungs - Joel's Library

 

[sparkky1]

Well my perception is the same as yours, I must have missed the post where you qualified your statement as being perception. I have an early stage of the condition. I stopped taking the drugs after I quit smoking. However if my understanding of the disease is correct it is normal to experience significantly improved lung function after quitting smoking, and I have certainly seen that. However that doesn't mean the lung damage from COPD is reversing, or even stopping, just that the lungs you have left are working better. The amount of lung tissue affected will continue to increase. I expect, rightly or wrongly, to see my lung capacity continue to degrade. If that happens, like you I might take another look at the medications.

If I am right about that then vapers with COPD will indeed see their condition continue to worsen, despite the positive bump that comes from quitting smoking. If so, it will likely be impossible to determine statistically whether vaping has contributed to the decline in lung capacity. Even harder to determine whether one of the long list of flavor chemicals has had any impact.

Since I don't know for sure about diketones and likely never will, I balanced the odds and decided not to partake of them any more. We have to make decisions every day on subjects where the available information is incomplete or contradictory.

If your not partaking in diketones anymore what are you substituting them with ?

 

[stevegmu]

If your not partaking in diketones anymore what are you substituting them with ?

They aren't needed. E-juice makers who aren't so talented rely on diacetyl and AP for flavor; the artists make great juice without them...

 

[sparkky1]

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0300.pdf ? what are your odds with this one ?

 

[stevegmu]

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0300.pdf ? what are your odds with this one ?

I don't think that should be used, either...

 

[sparkky1]

They aren't needed. E-juice makers who aren't so talented rely on diacetyl and AP for flavor; the artists make great juice without them...

Do you even have a clue what esters are ?

 

[stevegmu]

Do you even have a clue what esters are ?

Sure I do. I work with dimethyl esters and methyl ethyl ketone quite frequently. You don't really think because something is organic it is safe to heat and inhale, do you?

 

[sparkky1]

I don't think that should be used, either...

If it's diacetyl / ap free it is in there ........

 

[stevegmu]

If it's diacetyl / ap free it is in there ........

It was a substitute for vendors who couldn't make good e-liquid without diacetyl or AP. Many vendors never used diacetyl or AP from the beginning...

 

[mauricem00]

Since nobody really knows the long term affects of vaping this might be the least of your concerns. I do appreciate transparency though.

It might be affecting Nermal already!

we do know that PG causes throat irritation and VG can cause heaviness in the chest. wonder what our bodies are trying to tell us? what are the long term effects of vaping these chemicals? you can find a reason to be afraid of anything but after being tobacco free for over 7 month I feel much better so what ever the risk its not as bad as smoking

 

[sparkky1]

Sure I do. I work with dimethyl esters and methyl ethyl ketone quite frequently. You don't really think because something is organic it is safe to heat and inhale, do you?

Not what I said .....

 

[stevegmu]

Not what I said .....

diacetyl / ap free it is in there ........

Not true...

 

[sparkky1]

It was a substitute for vendors who couldn't make good e-liquid without diacetyl or AP. Many vendors never used diacetyl or AP from the beginning...

who is many ? how many flavors ?

 

[mauricem00]

I think its being blown out of proportion a bit to be honest.

I vape at 8 watts

The danger to me, even with a juice with trace amounts of diacetyl inside is MUCH lower than someone vaping at 50-100 watts......especially since they are approaching combustion.

It just stands to reason that more chemicals will be released with more energy applied.

I just lost my all-time favorite all day vape because of this and Im none too happy about it.

Not everyone sub-ohms and/or blows massive clouds.I think it should be left up to us as consumers to decide what we put into our bodies, NOT juice manufacturers, not AEMSA, and certainly not the latest and greatest vaping fad.

If businesses continue to cater to only one kind of customer then thats the only customers they will have.

fortunately the cloud chasers are our "canary in the mine" they use much more juice at a higher temperature so will be the first to experience any heath effects. i've noticed that AM PM gas stations have started carrying e-go batteries with MT3 tanks. where there is demand some business will meet that demand

 

[stevegmu]

who is many ? how many flavors ?

Alice In Vapeland, Halo, Johnson Creek, NJOY... Would you like me to research a whole list for you? If you think a vendor can't make good e-liquid without suspect ingredients, so be it...