Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs
- Thread starter Moonbogg
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Just imagine in 3-5 years if 10000 vapers come down with popcorn lung. That will officially kill vaping...
Yes.
That is why I quit cigarettes.
I feel that I dodged a bullet by putting down the cigarettes.
You are basically asking me WHY I don't take up that bullet again and put it into the barrel and then spin it and take my chances?
As Dr. F. pointed out, it is possible that damage from DAP is in form of COPD and other lung disease. I started vaping in order to embrace the concept of "harm reduction". Therefore, vaping instead of smoking is harm reduction, and then, I choose to increase the harm reduction aspect by NOT vaping DAP-laden eliquids.
Makes total sense to me, i.e. "vape as safely AS POSSIBLE. No downsides to that idea for ME.
Its not about B.O. or anything else, really. It's about me wanting to ELIMINATE as many perceived risks as possible, otherwise, I would just start smoking again.
Vaping gave me an opportunity to CONTROL what I vape. Both in substance as well as nicotine level. I did not have that choice when I bought a pack of cigs.
I have that opportunity now, and I'm going to fully exercise it.
Well since you say you avoid diketones to vape as safely as possible I hope you also vape unflavored juice and only vape at high nic levels in small amounts as opposed to lower nic levels with longer more dense drags more often because thats about the safest way you can do it. If this were truely your goal then you wouldnt be picking and choosing which flavors you deem safe and which you dont and would be avoiding all flavorings. Its harm reduction right?
One thing people should be very careful about, when voicing their opinions, is insinuating that opinion and speculation are fact. Not that you did this. It is a common theme among threads like this though.
I see a lot of finger pointing at subohm vaping as well. I vape many ways, and what I've noticed is my low power tootle puffs often feel much more concentrated on flavor compared to say, dual Claptons at 60W. The high power builds are shorter puffs with a lot more air mixed in. Can someone vaping that way consume more juice? Yes, possibly. They also may vape less often though because its powerful. I won't be surprised to learn the amount of flavoring inhaled between the two extremes actually evens out.
True. Opinions are stated as facts, facts are exaggerated, and fallacious arguments are extended routinely .... by both sides. Tends to be the case in most controversial issues, and this one is certainly a controversial issue and it has split vapers. What is also true, is that we tend to notice ( and/or point out ) these exaggerations and " maskings of opinion as fact " more in people we disagree with than those we agree with.
Despite all this, i believe it's the controversial topics especially that deserve to be discussed more, it tends to lead to self-regulation in the long-term. Unity is overrated and a false consensus is not worth reaching.
it's not possible to Tootle Puff 20-30 ml per day of eLiquid containing 15% flavouring ... some of the high VG eLiquid is 80VG/20 Flavouring.
IMO, the amount of flavoring inhaled between the two extremes cannot even out.
20-30ml?? I would have to say anyone doing that isn't using nicotine
This is my case: I can take 5 hits off an atty running 60W and it will shut me up for an hour. Or I can vape say, a Rose at 18W and I'll practically chain vape during that hour. And take very long hits. And use more juice!
There is no way in Hades I could chain vape my Aromamizer or Cthulhu unless I went to 0 nic, but that would be pointless for me. At this time, I vape for nic primarily, and have a behavior "addiction" of the inhaling/exhaling.
Slightly off topic, but i tend to notice that sub-ohm ( as well as low-nic and high vg ) vapers do tend to vape more than their counterparts, often significantly more. I have noticed this trend both in real life and also amongst my on-line friends in the thread i participate in most.
Just my observation, and it may or may not be indicative, but as a betting man i would wager a significant amount that i am correct. What the implications are long-term, i can't be certain.
I vape 0% nic now.
When I DIY my own ejuice, I use about about 1% flavoring. Usually a mint. No sucralose, etc.
If I buy vendor juice, it is from those who test for diketones, and even then, I have always cut my vendor juice down by 1/2 or even 3/4 with plain VG/PG.....because since the day I started vaping in 2012, I find almost all ejuices to contain way too much flavoring for my palate. A 30 ml bottle of ejuice therefore, lasts me about a month. I'm a cheap date.
I almost didn't want to vape because of that til I figured out what the problem was.
I do agree with you about higher nic and less vaping though.
I never vaped more than 3ml a day in 3 years I've been vaping though. And I hate the "burny" taste of nic, so I reduced as I went along with a goal of 0%.
Eliquid tastes really good to me now. At 0% nic, I will probably be quit by Christmas. (I'm still gonna hang around here though).
SO yeah, I've been pretty efficient at harm reduction.
20-30ml?? I would have to say anyone doing that isn't using nicotine
nic is not the problem ... however, flavouring might be.
0 nic high watt vaping is becoming quite popular with the next generation of would be smokers.
Some of these guys are blowing through some serious amounts of high VG high flavoured eLiquid.
I saw a thread where a lot of subohmers were going through 30-40 ml of e-liquid a day. They are vaping more flavorings alone than the average vaper does e-liquid. Also, as it is 100% VG, their flavoring may be 20%...
Oh, well I will make sure I get you back next week, after I have periodontal surgery.
That should put me in the cherriest mood and I will make sure I post to .......YOU.
Seriously, I hope you feel better soon, Lessifer. There was a summer virus going around about 3 months ago that I heard was not fun. Hope that is not what ya got.
So if you switched to vaping from cigs for harm reduction, then cut out diketones for harm reduction, then cut down to zero nic why are you still vaping? You are no longer vaping for your nic fix so continuing the harm reduction mantra wouldnt it make sense to stop vaping alltogether since you no longer need it to satisfy you nicotine cravings instead of smoking? Seems like vaping for no reason is an avoidable risk and goes against the harm reduction strategy since you no longer need to vape to stay off the smokes.I vape 0% nic now.
When I DIY my own ejuice, I use about about 1% flavoring. Usually a mint. No sucralose, etc.
If I buy vendor juice, it is from those who test for diketones, and even then, I have always cut my vendor juice down by 1/2 or even 3/4 with plain VG/PG.....because since the day I started vaping in 2012, I find almost all ejuices to contain way too much flavoring for my palate. A 30 ml bottle of ejuice therefore, lasts me about a month. I'm a cheap date.
I almost didn't want to vape because of that til I figured out what the problem was.
I do agree with you about higher nic and less vaping though.
I never vaped more than 3ml a day in 3 years I've been vaping though. And I hate the "burny" taste of nic, so I reduced as I went along with a goal of 0%.
Eliquid tastes really good to me now. At 0% nic, I will probably be quit by Christmas. (I'm still gonna hang around here though).
SO yeah, I've been pretty efficient at harm reduction.
it wasn't even possible to vape the high levels of flavouring in high VG juice 5 years ago.
most ejuice was weak flavoured 70-80PG/20-30VG ... 2-5ml per day was the norm.
open tank vaping might just evolve itself into extinction.
most ejuice was weak flavoured 70-80PG/20-30VG ... 2-5ml per day was the norm.
open tank vaping might just evolve itself into extinction.
I use 6mg in everything. I wouldn't be able to chain vape it at 60W all day. Not possible.
In fact I've realized if I only used those two attys I would vape less and use less juice because they're so effective.
If someone is vaping 0 nic though, and using 20+ml of juice a day, I think they may be addicted to blowing clouds. Expensive habit if you don't DIY. Let's see...30ml bottle of juice $18 compared to pack of Marlboro Special Blend $5.10 in my area when I quit smoking. Hmm, smoking would be significantly cheaper.
In fact I've realized if I only used those two attys I would vape less and use less juice because they're so effective.
If someone is vaping 0 nic though, and using 20+ml of juice a day, I think they may be addicted to blowing clouds. Expensive habit if you don't DIY. Let's see...30ml bottle of juice $18 compared to pack of Marlboro Special Blend $5.10 in my area when I quit smoking. Hmm, smoking would be significantly cheaper.
So you are under the (misconception) that vaping is ONLY about what you call "nic fix" and has no behavioral aspects.
(Also given that it hasn't been fully established that nicotine is definitely "addictive". Some may have a dependence, which is also not the same thing. )
I vape because I like the ritual. That is what I liked about smoking as well. I like having something to do with hands, blowing out vapor, etc. It relaxes me and de-stresses me.
You seem kinda "annoyed" that I have successfully managed to quit smoking, while vaping in a manner that is pretty conservative (by most standards) and employs the most "harm reduction" features that I could think of to use in this endeavor.
Is there something about this that bothers you? There is something a tad judgemental and accusatory in the tone of your posts to me..... so I guess that's why I'm asking.
Of note is your reference to harm reduction as a "mantra". Is it okay with you if I sluice my harm reduction (vaping) even further down to include measures that I consider even more of "harm reducing"?
I guess you would never recommend vaping to a never-smoker, right? I mean, they wouldn't be needing a "nic fix" as you call it.
Last edited:
Yep. People actually sound like they are willing to wait for that to happen. Thousands of permanently damaged vapers sounds like the only proof that will satisfy them. A link was established with humans, testing was done on rats, testing was done on tissues, data was taken from work place injuries and info collected for tons of lawsuits, but none of that counts for anything. None of that hard data is any good because those people didn't get their diketones from a kayfun or dripper? OK then! Lets wait for people to get injured from vaping. Then we'll really, really, super duper factually actually know for REAL!
And yes, when/if that happens, vaping is dead, even for BT, and they don't even need it anyway.
Right. I still vape a kayfun at about 4 mils a day. Maybe a bit more because I am settling down with 3mg. I remember loading my Kayfun lite with the full 4ml of 12mg juice and trying my hardest to chain vape that thing dry in a day, and it was a tall order for me personally. These days, I have friends who go through 4 mils of juice while we are having a long conversation, let alone all day long. These are 15, 20, 30+ mil per day vapers. If it would have taken me 20 years to get sick from diketones, these guys may be screwed in 5 or so, or start to see symptoms. Yeah its a guess, but not a bad guess IMO and worth avoiding at any and all cost to save vaping.
Please link these studies you speak of in this thread. My second request for this.
IMO, this is the most sane approach. If you believe the risk is that great, then one wonders why you are vaping in today's market? But because people have been vaping for 5+ years and there is very close to zero harmed, in way you are alleging, then it would be very large overreaction to change things, and could very plausibly make it less safe. How would you know? And if it is at or near zero harmed, how are you going to improve upon that?
This just makes me wanna bring up my standing wager that says there will be more reported incidents of harm to vapers in the FDA regulated market than there exists before the FDA final rule. So far no takers on this wager. I'm very curious why that is when I see threads like this pop up.
Steve's point and those who think that'll happen are giving into fear mongering. It's also the antithesis of my wager above, which could conceivably be considered another version of fear mongering, but under that scenario, I don't think there will be lots of harm coming to vapers, just noticeably more than what exists currently / for last 5 years. I don't think it'll end vaping.
But to think that vaping will end because of some maybe, potential, possible, could happen type scenario and to then rant and rave about that as if its inevitable equals fear mongering.
Dr. F. is engaging in fear mongering on this issue when he says it should be avoided. That is not a scientific assertion. Instead, it is an opinion that he is welcome to have / express. Had he left it as "could be avoided" or softened the aim and still kept to the veracity of his claims, it wouldn't be fear mongering. Using the "should" word, equals fear mongering. I'm fairly certain I've said this to him directly on ECF in the past.
- Status
