Nicoticket Testing Results

[Moonbogg]

In essence and per the report, the liquid does contain what is considered "trace" amounts of diketones. You will notice that some of the flavors are marked with "ND", that indicates that the diacetyl levels are Non Detectable or below the Method Detection Limit. The rest are marked with "J", indicating levels are below the limit standard, and just above the Method Detection Limit. We posted the results so that our customers can make an informed decision for themselves and their health. We have never made the statement that vaping is 100% risk free. Anytime you inhale anything other than fresh air, there is a risk. And honestly, depending where you live, even the "fresh" air is a risk. With that said, we are in the process of reworking those flavors that have higher amounts of AP. As a company, Nicoticket is committed to educating consumers, harm reduction and transparency.

Thanks for the response. I'm not interested in making a big fuss about old language the site used to have and nit picking. I am saying that I noticed the discrepancy in language and disclosure. I am just putting my share of pressure on you as a consumer of your product. I want to tell you that safety is important to me and you seem to be responding by looking at new recipes, which is both good for customers, and IMO, critical for you because the market is shifting and one day consumers just won't buy products with measurable levels of diketones because there are alternatives out there.
Given the recent trend of high wattage vaping, I think the avoidance of Diketones is critical to the health of vapers. If it were my business, no way in hell could I sleep at night knowing I was responsible for the wide spread distribution of a lung damage risk to customers trusting me to responsibly provide a product used as a safer alternative to smoking.

 

[I'mnotZak]

While on the subject of testing, where can I find the lab results for Passioncake and The Cure 2.0?

 

[Katia]

Thanks for the response. I'm not interested in making a big fuss about old language the site used to have and nit picking. I am saying that I noticed the discrepancy in language and disclosure. I am just putting my share of pressure on you as a consumer of your product. I want to tell you that safety is important to me and you seem to be responding by looking at new recipes, which is both good for customers, and IMO, critical for you because the market is shifting and one day consumers just won't buy products with measurable levels of diketones because there are alternatives out there.
Given the recent trend of high wattage vaping, I think the avoidance of Diketones is critical to the health of vapers. If it were my business, no way in hell could I sleep at night knowing I was responsible for the wide spread distribution of a lung damage risk to customers trusting me to responsibly provide a product used as a safer alternative to smoking.

I applaud you on "putting pressure" on us and other companies. We can never have too many consumer advocates out there. The industry as well as Nicoticket, is going to have to evolve with the consumers requests and the FDA's requirements (once they are known). The sooner we can make that change, the better for all involved.

While on the subject of testing, where can I find the lab results for Passioncake and The Cure 2.0?

We are still waiting the results on these liquids and will release them as soon as we have them.

 

[I'mnotZak]

We are still waiting the results on these liquids and will release them as soon as we have them.

Thank you Katia. Your response is appreciated.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Didn't the website used to say that some of these juices had "trace amounts" of diketones and they were disclosing it simply as a formality, but the testing reveals pretty large numbers for some of these? Is it blasphemy for me to bring this up because I feel that was pretty misleading. Now the site just says "this juice contains diketones". I remember ordering juice thinking "Oh, trace amounts aren't a big deal and they said they were telling me simply for the sake of honest disclosure, so it must be really low". But really, it was pretty damn high for AP and IMO those juices should be taken off the shelf. What if people develop lung issues? Screw it? Blame the customer because they should have known? That sounds familiar.

I hate to be so blunt - but yes, none of us should have started smoking in the first place and it's no one's fault but our own if we have issues. I sleep like a baby knowing I provide an alternative to smoking that is *up to 95% safer than a traditional combustible cigarette. (citation needed)

THERE WILL BE REPERCUSSIONS FROM VAPING AND I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. Users accept ALL liability for use or misuse of e-cigarettes and related products (like eLiquid).

We've gone to great lengths to ensure everyone understands that THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR CLEAN FRESH AIR. If you want less risk, stop vaping - that's the best solution.

If your concern is flavoring, vape unflavored eLiquid.

 

[Flavored]

It's probably in this thread somewhere, haven't been keeping up, but a thread in the e-liquid forum had this link:

Testing Times for Eliquid | Planet of the Vapes

There's a chart in that article that shows, if I compared the levels in Kent's OP to it properly, the NT juices were all in the "don't have to disclose" arena.

 

[Gauntlgrym]

If your concern is flavoring, vape unflavored eLiquid.

i respect you clark, but isn't this answer kind of a cop-out??

"flavoring" is not the issue here. DA and AP in the flavoring is the issue.
why should we be forced to vape unflavored, when we know that liquids CAN be DA/AP free?

if vapers vape a liquid that has DA or AP then we are taking an extra risk that we don't need to take.
why not just make liquid without DA/AP, since we know it's possible to do???

*edit*
i just wanted to add that other companies have stopped doing things that could potentially cause harm in the past.
when cuttwood got slammed for the pink stuff (forget name), they said "sorry we didn't know is was bad, and we won't be putting that in anymore."
they didn't say "you don't like it, vape unflavored."

also, when aspire was ridiculed for the ceramic material in the coils. they stopped using it and went to organic cotton. they didn't say "well if you don't like it, then don't use a subtank."

 

[BlueSnake]

I would venture a guess that there are those terribly concerned about DA/AP in juice that also sub ohm at extreme low ohms and very high watts consuming massive amounts of juice. Overdoing anything, including drinking too much water, can be hazardous to one's health.

So little is known about any of this when it comes to vaping that it's just all speculation at this point. There are NO absolutes when it comes to vaping.

So if people are truly worried about their health the only risk free solution is to not vape. That is no "cop-out", just cold hard facts.

All the rest is just educated speculation at this point. I for one cannot become obsessed with educated speculation.

 

[Kent Brooks]

i respect you clark, but isn't this answer kind of a cop-out??

Yes, and no. Here's the thing - we don't know that reducing DA and AP is desirable. What if, for example, someone needs X liquid to quit or stay quit... what then? Everyone wants to make it all about them, but what about the next guy - what about the guy that is looking for anything that will get them off the cigarettes. Do they care how much DA and AP is in the liquid?

It seems like everyone patiently waiting for someone (like me) to accept liability for SMOKING RELATED ILLNESS.

Example: If I (personally) experience respiratory health issues - it's not because I vape, and it's certainly not because I vape liquid that contains DA and/or AP - it's because I started smoking.

This whole thread is off track because I errantly led people to believe that the ORIGIN of the PROBLEM is DA/AP. DA and AP are not the problem, smoking is the problem. The irony is, the noobs fresh off the boat are willing to accept "up to 95% safer than a cigarette (even if that number is closer to, say, 70%, with more Diacetyl than I any human being can stuff in a bottle). Even if Nicoticket eLiquid is only 10% safer, that's MILLIONS of lives saved. We conveniently forget to mention that there are levels of DA and AP in cigarettes that exceed 100x the most "offensive" eLiquid. There is absolutely nothing any responsible vendor can put in the bottle that approaches the level of risk associated with a cigarette - but people start smoking every day. We also help people quit smoking, everyday. So, I accept the risk associated with producing said liquid, and you accept the risk of vaping it. What were we talking about, again? Oh yea, harm reduction - been there, done that.

The point is - we're working to minimize the risk - but - we don't have the slightest idea what the effect of removing DA and AP are. What if DA and AP are actually desirable - have we considered that? What if, for example, the removal of DA/AP causes 25% fewer new customers to quit smoking? Has anyone measured that?

The entire risk profile of a traditional combustible cigarette is summed up on a Surgeon General's Warning on the side of a pack of cigarettes. The message is "Don't Smoke."

Pretend for a second I am the Surgeon General - my message is "Don't Vape."

None of us were concerned about DA and AP when we were trying to kick the habit, were we? Is it because of ignorance, or was it because "any reduction is risk is acceptable because cigarettes are the leading cause of preventable death on the planet?"

That's not a copout - that's REAL. That's the message no one else is willing to send.

 

[Kent Brooks]

I would venture a guess that there are those terribly concerned about DA/AP in juice that also sub ohm at extreme low ohms and very high watts consuming massive amounts of juice. Overdoing anything, including drinking too much water, can be hazardous to one's health.

So little is known about any of this when it comes to vaping that it's just all speculation at this point. There are NO absolutes when it comes to vaping.

So if people are truly worried about their health the only risk free solution is to not vape. That is no "cop-out", just cold hard facts.

All the rest is just educated speculation at this point. I for one cannot become obsessed with educated speculation.

What part of filling a tank with a poisonous substance and inhaling it made you feel safe?

Safer than a cigarette? Probably. Safe? Absolutely NOT. Safe is a straightjacket - people are their own worst enemies.

 

[Kent Brooks]

why should we be forced to vape unflavored, when we know that liquids CAN be DA/AP free?

Liquids can be DA/AP free - and some of my liquids are (or, at least low enough to be considered trace). What people want is liquid that tastes like it has DA and AP in it, with none of the (perceived) risk - and that doesn't exist, unfortunately.

 

[Gauntlgrym]

Liquids can be DA/AP free - and some of my liquids are (or, at least low enough to be considered trace). What people want is liquid that tastes like it has DA and AP in it, with none of the (perceived) risk - and that doesn't exist, unfortunately.

well, if anyone can make great liquid without DA/AP, you can. you have already done it with BG and Gravity.
i for one would be willing to sacrifice a little flavor for DA/AP free.
your liquid is already so good. i bet it would still be better than most of the competition, even if you went DA/AP free.

*edit*
i also wanted to add that you are pretty much already diacetyl free. almost everything in your line is less than 10j or ND and still manage to taste great. so, imo those are good numbers. now i just hope you can get the AP down.

 

[Moonbogg]

Clark, I can tell you right now, Nicoticket carved out a special place in my heart for providing a great experience when I started vaping. You were my big discovery. I appreciated the warnings on your website, but when I saw and was able to compare the levels of AP in your juice to some others, I was pretty surprised, as were some other people I'm sure.
I don't think that people need diketones to get off smokes. Hell, Betelgeuse is an insanely good juice with perfectly reasonable levels of diketone detection.
I am trying to quit for other reasons besides health concerns. Vaping is a pain in the .... for me personally, but if I do continue vaping, I would be willing to stand by you as a customer if you meet me half way and try to get those levels down. I've heard that these things take time to redevelop and you might even have to slowly introduce a new line of juices, which could be a great and awesome thing to have a dedicated diketone free line. I bet your customers will stand by you and some of them don't mind the diketones. For me personally, if I see that you are taking steps to introduce safer juices, then I for one would be willing to stand by you through that difficult transition.
You mastered the art of making a good juice with diketones and you can do better than all those other guys at mastering a good juice without diketones as well. If you do that, then long live Nicoticket IMO.

 

[Mazinny]

We conveniently forget to mention that there are levels of DA and AP in cigarettes that exceed 100x the most "offensive" eLiquid. There is absolutely nothing any responsible vendor can put in the bottle that approaches the level of risk associated with a cigarette - but people start smoking every day.

This is simply not true. There are liquids in the market that have way more AP in them than cigarettes do ( comparing 20 cigarettes with 3 ml of eliquid ). Using Frenilla as representing the most " offensive " e liquid in your menu, 3 ml contains over 3000 ug of AP whereas 20 cigarettes contain 894 ug of AP.

I want to make clear that by no means am i suggesting that smoking cigarettes is not more harmful than vaping liquid with high levels of AP, but if we are to make comparisons, the numbers should be accurate.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

i respect you clark, but isn't this answer kind of a cop-out??

"flavoring" is not the issue here. DA and AP in the flavoring is the issue.
why should we be forced to vape unflavored, when we know that liquids CAN be DA/AP free?

Why isn't flavoring an issue?
How many different chemicals make up artificial strawberry flavoring(s)?
Do you know these chemicals by name? Do you know their risk profile?
Are they listed on every bottle of Strawberry "Whatever" juice you buy?

People vaping flavored liquid have absolutely NO idea what they are inhaling. PERIOD.
If you don't know exactly what you are vaping, how can you know the risks associated with it?

I'm a recent quitter, and I am sorting out what to do in the future. I am realistic in assuming there is risk from everything I am inhaling, be it the scare du jour, or the stuff we don't have a name for. Where are the studies that came to the conclusion that inhaling sucralose is A-OK?

 

[Moonbogg]

Where are the studies that came to the conclusion that inhaling sucralose is A-OK?

No one says anything in e-liquid is A-OK. As risks are identified, they should be addressed. By doing this, vaping will continue to not only evolve with regard to the awesome technology used, but with regard to safety as well. Things evolve incrementally and the evolution of vaping's safety can only evolve that way as we identify new risk. Temperature control is one amazing development in the evolution of vaping's safety, and removal of diketones is another big one. Go for the low hanging fruit first.
We know diketones present a risk to human lungs, so that is already being addressed, but not by the industry as a whole. When a new risk is identified, people can address that. Each time we do this we can vape with a little more assurance and ease. But if we don't self regulate, the biggest risk we face is people legislating vaping away from us.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Officially an unflavored vaper now...in my more recent yet strong view, we can talk about DA/AP levels all day long, but none of us know anything about what flavorings will do to us further down the road. While everyone centers the debate on diketones, maybe in ten years some random flavoring agent will pop up as being even worse. I agree wholeheartedly with Clark's posts on this page, but I'm saying one thing and one thing only: if you've never tried unflavored eliquid, how do you know that you need or prefer flavors? I flavor chased with the best of em for over a year, only to find that, for the lowly sloth here, nothing, nothing, is better than unflavored nicotine (so long as the nic itself is quality!). I have removed the vast majority of chemicals from my liquid as such - there are indeed only 3 left - the healthiest way to vape?

Do yourselves a favor, try it. A liter costs me $13. It is actually difficult to vape any flavors now, even Wakonda and Radioactive, after adjusting to the beauty of unflavored. Think I'm crazy?

That's my parting statement to this thread - moving along and wishing you all well,
Sloth

 

[Jimi D.]

Officially an unflavored vaper now...in my more recent yet strong view, we can talk about DA/AP levels all day long, but none of us know anything about what flavorings will do to us further down the road. While everyone centers the debate on diketones, maybe in ten years some random flavoring agent will pop up as being even worse. I agree wholeheartedly with Clark's posts on this page, but I'm saying one thing and one thing only: if you've never tried unflavored eliquid, how do you know that you need or prefer flavors? I flavor chased with the best of em for over a year, only to find that, for the lowly sloth here, nothing, nothing, is better than unflavored nicotine (so long as the nic itself is quality!). I have removed the vast majority of chemicals from my liquid as such - there are indeed only 3 left - the healthiest way to vape?

Do yourselves a favor, try it. A liter costs me $13. It is actually difficult to vape any flavors now, even Wakonda and Radioactive, after adjusting to the beauty of unflavored. Think I'm crazy?

That's my parting statement to this thread - moving along and wishing you all well,
Sloth

Oh, I tried unflavored. It just plain sucks..

 

[57chilicat]

Thanks for sharing Sloth! To Clark and Katia, would there be the opportunity to purchase unflavored from NT in the future? I would like to give it a try and would prefer to purchase it from NT!

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Oh, I tried unflavored. It just plain sucks..

You're entitled to your opinion. I just ask that you try not to discourage someone from trying it to form their OWN opinion, please. It could carry less health risks and save people a lot of money.

$31.99 for 60ml, or $13 for a liter. My point isn't that everyone will like it, just as my point wasn't that everyone would or should worship Wakonda; my point is some of us do like it, even prefer it - it's worth trying if you haven't