Nicoticket Testing Results

[motabrownie]

Officially an unflavored vaper now...in my more recent yet strong view, we can talk about DA/AP levels all day long, but none of us know anything about what flavorings will do to us further down the road. While everyone centers the debate on diketones, maybe in ten years some random flavoring agent will pop up as being even worse. I agree wholeheartedly with Clark's posts on this page, but I'm saying one thing and one thing only: if you've never tried unflavored eliquid, how do you know that you need or prefer flavors? I flavor chased with the best of em for over a year, only to find that, for the lowly sloth here, nothing, nothing, is better than unflavored nicotine (so long as the nic itself is quality!). I have removed the vast majority of chemicals from my liquid as such - there are indeed only 3 left - the healthiest way to vape?

Do yourselves a favor, try it. A liter costs me $13. It is actually difficult to vape any flavors now, even Wakonda and Radioactive, after adjusting to the beauty of unflavored. Think I'm crazy?

That's my parting statement to this thread - moving along and wishing you all well,
Sloth

We got some unflavored the other day and I gotta say its better than I expected. My wife thinks it tastes like vanilla cake. I dont get that at all but Im not argue with her lol. And yeah, vape unflavored for awhile and all flavored juice becomes almost too much to handle.

Thanks for sharing Sloth! To Clark and Katia, would there be the opportunity to purchase unflavored from NT in the future? I would like to give it a try and would prefer to purchase it from NT!

I was gonna PM you this info but I got mine from Nude Nicotine. $8 for 120ml!!!!! I'll PM you later with more info. I need to wake up first

 

[57chilicat]

So I am still a little bit confused! Are the NT net juices diketone free? Especially my favorite Wakonda!!!!!

Scratch this question! Duh! I just looked at the chart again!

 

[Kent Brooks]

well, if anyone can make great liquid without DA/AP, you can. you have already done it with BG and Gravity.
i for one would be willing to sacrifice a little flavor for DA/AP free.
your liquid is already so good. i bet it would still be better than most of the competition, even if you went DA/AP free.

*edit*
i also wanted to add that you are pretty much already diacetyl free. almost everything in your line is less than 10j or ND and still manage to taste great. so, imo those are good numbers. now i just hope you can get the AP down.

Making liquid without diketones is the REAL art - an art I am still trying to hone. Like any artist - I'm continuing to refine my art. I can't say I will never make another liquid that's above what the pundits say is acceptable with regard to diketones - but - I'll always be attentive to the results, and transparent with regard to the perceived safety.

Personally, I could care less what the DA/AP numbers are - but you care, so I care. I'm not a smoker - that's the miracle.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Clark, I can tell you right now, Nicoticket carved out a special place in my heart for providing a great experience when I started vaping. You were my big discovery. I appreciated the warnings on your website, but when I saw and was able to compare the levels of AP in your juice to some others, I was pretty surprised, as were some other people I'm sure.
I don't think that people need diketones to get off smokes. Hell, Betelgeuse is an insanely good juice with perfectly reasonable levels of diketone detection.
I am trying to quit for other reasons besides health concerns. Vaping is a pain in the .... for me personally, but if I do continue vaping, I would be willing to stand by you as a customer if you meet me half way and try to get those levels down. I've heard that these things take time to redevelop and you might even have to slowly introduce a new line of juices, which could be a great and awesome thing to have a dedicated diketone free line. I bet your customers will stand by you and some of them don't mind the diketones. For me personally, if I see that you are taking steps to introduce safer juices, then I for one would be willing to stand by you through that difficult transition.
You mastered the art of making a good juice with diketones and you can do better than all those other guys at mastering a good juice without diketones as well. If you do that, then long live Nicoticket IMO.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I really *do* care about the levels (on a professional level). I'm working on a v2 of several flavors - but I anticipate retaining v1's. Most people who have done their due diligence could care less... some, do. For those some, we have options on the menu - and will have many more coming!~

 

[Kent Brooks]

This is simply not true. There are liquids in the market that have way more AP in them than cigarettes do ( comparing 20 cigarettes with 3 ml of eliquid ). Using Frenilla as representing the most " offensive " e liquid in your menu, 3 ml contains over 3000 ug of AP whereas 20 cigarettes contain 894 ug of AP.

I want to make clear that by no means am i suggesting that smoking cigarettes is not more harmful than vaping liquid with high levels of AP, but if we are to make comparisons, the numbers should be accurate.

Not sure where those numbers came from - but when I compare and contrast liquid to cigarettes, I generally take the combined number (DA+AP).

 

[Kent Brooks]

Why isn't flavoring an issue?
How many different chemicals make up artificial strawberry flavoring(s)?
Do you know these chemicals by name? Do you know their risk profile?
Are they listed on every bottle of Strawberry "Whatever" juice you buy?

People vaping flavored liquid have absolutely NO idea what they are inhaling. PERIOD.
If you don't know exactly what you are vaping, how can you know the risks associated with it?

I'm a recent quitter, and I am sorting out what to do in the future. I am realistic in assuming there is risk from everything I am inhaling, be it the scare du jour, or the stuff we don't have a name for. Where are the studies that came to the conclusion that inhaling sucralose is A-OK?

The scare du jour... having been in the industry for over 2 years now, I have an appreciation for it. The scare, in my opinion, has much more to do with psychology than it does the actual contents of the liquid. It's all about being seen as "more than just another smoker" to the wider population. Smokers are castigated and banished to the "smoking area." Outside. In the cold. More than anything, I think former smokers (vapers) want to be "welcomed back inside" as individuals who are making conscious choices about what they put in their bodies. The unfortunate truth is, the wider population still views us as 2nd class citizens, deserving of little more than a pat on the back for substituting one addiction for another. It looks like smoke. That's fine - I know how I feel - and it's much better than when I was smoking...

 

[Kent Brooks]

No one says anything in e-liquid is A-OK. As risks are identified, they should be addressed. By doing this, vaping will continue to not only evolve with regard to the awesome technology used, but with regard to safety as well. Things evolve incrementally and the evolution of vaping's safety can only evolve that way as we identify new risk. Temperature control is one amazing development in the evolution of vaping's safety, and removal of diketones is another big one. Go for the low hanging fruit first.
We know diketones present a risk to human lungs, so that is already being addressed, but not by the industry as a whole. When a new risk is identified, people can address that. Each time we do this we can vape with a little more assurance and ease. But if we don't self regulate, the biggest risk we face is people legislating vaping away from us.

While I applaud developments like temp control (it's the single biggest development in hardware I have seen during my tenure) - it doesn't change the fundamentals. The safest option is to discontinue use. My goal is to help you reach your personal goals. First it's to quit smoking. Then it's to find the least harmful option while you continue to consume nicotine. Finally, it's to relieve you of your nicotine addiction entirely. Everyone is at different stages of vaping... some only want to go so far (IE, there are plenty of people who don't want to quit vaping, and that's fine). Some could care less about the relative safety of the liquid, they are just glad they aren't smoking. And some, are pushing to get to total independence from nicotine. I honor and respect all those goals...

In the interim, I keep educating, and working toward the goal of producing the safest, most consistent, eLiquid that I am able to produce.

 

[Kent Brooks]

Officially an unflavored vaper now...in my more recent yet strong view, we can talk about DA/AP levels all day long, but none of us know anything about what flavorings will do to us further down the road. While everyone centers the debate on diketones, maybe in ten years some random flavoring agent will pop up as being even worse. I agree wholeheartedly with Clark's posts on this page, but I'm saying one thing and one thing only: if you've never tried unflavored eliquid, how do you know that you need or prefer flavors? I flavor chased with the best of em for over a year, only to find that, for the lowly sloth here, nothing, nothing, is better than unflavored nicotine (so long as the nic itself is quality!). I have removed the vast majority of chemicals from my liquid as such - there are indeed only 3 left - the healthiest way to vape?

Do yourselves a favor, try it. A liter costs me $13. It is actually difficult to vape any flavors now, even Wakonda and Radioactive, after adjusting to the beauty of unflavored. Think I'm crazy?

That's my parting statement to this thread - moving along and wishing you all well,
Sloth

Despite the fact that it's "bad for business" - I agree - unflavored eLiquid is superior to flavored by virtue of the fact that fewer chemicals is always better. For me, that's indisputable. I'd also encourage everyone to try unflavored. It doesn't trip my trigger, but it might trip yours. It's certainly less expensive, and the risk profile is lower. You are absolutely correct in the respect that the "boogeyman" is probably something we haven't even considered. Even unflavored shouldn't be described as "safe" - "safer than flavored liquid" is a fair statement though. Congrats on your step forward bro!

 

[Kent Brooks]

Thanks for sharing Sloth! To Clark and Katia, would there be the opportunity to purchase unflavored from NT in the future? I would like to give it a try and would prefer to purchase it from NT!

Flavor is why we exist - so, probably not. Unflavored liquid is exceptionally easy to DIY... base + nicotine.

 

[Kent Brooks]

So I am still a little bit confused! Are the NT net juices diketone free? Especially my favorite Wakonda!!!!!

Scratch this question! Duh! I just looked at the chart again!

No - our NET liquids are considered hybrids because we almost always add some commercially available flavoring, or - flavoring we have compounded in house.

 

[57chilicat]

What matters to alot of us is that you are hearing all of us Clark! I will be looking forward to your new V2 options. I can't say that I don't have conflicting thoughts on the whole diketone issue but I have not given up on NT moving forward with some really good diketone free juices. The best of both worlds is a continuation of a Safer juice, because no vape is a completely safe vape, as Clark has stated himself.
What we do need is to know that NT will never give up on giving us the safest juice it possible can. Reformulating the NT line is a step in the right direction and Clark has told us he is working towards that goal.
I stated to someone earlier that I am not a very outspoken person but I am trying. I want to say that I have NOT given up hope that Clark will tremendously lower the diketone if not totally get rid of them.
That being said, keep moving forward. What should be important to all of us is keeping positive goals for our vaping journeys! NT has juices that have non detectable amounts of dikotones and those are available now. We look forward to more to come!

 

[Kent Brooks]

What matters to alot of us is that you are hearing all of us Clark! I will be looking forward to your new V2 options. I can't say that I don't have conflicting thoughts on the whole diketone issue but I have not given up on NT moving forward with some really good diketone free juices. The best of both worlds is a continuation of a Safer juice, because no vape is a completely safe vape, as Clark has stated himself.
What we do need is to know that NT will never give up on giving us the safest juice it possible can. Reformulating the NT line is a step in the right direction and Clark has told us he is working towards that goal.
I stated to someone earlier that I am not a very outspoken person but I am trying. I want to say that I have NOT given up hope that Clark will tremendously lower the diketone if not totally get rid of them.
That being said, keep moving forward. What should be important to all of us is keeping positive goals for our vaping journeys! NT has juices that have non detectable amounts of dikotones and those are available now. We look forward to more to come!

#WIP = Work in Progress

In this industry, if you ever feel like you are on top of your game and quit evolving - you're done.

 

[Mazinny]

Not sure where those numbers came from - but when I compare and contrast liquid to cigarettes, I generally take the combined number (DA+AP).

There is more diacetyl in cigarette smoke than AP. I cited the AP numbers because there is a negligible amount of diacetyl in your ( and most manufacturers ) liquid these days. Combining the AP and DA numbers is fair enough and you are correct that it would be more relevant, since all scientists have estimated their potential harm to be identical.

The source for my numbers ( 285 of diacetyl and 43 of AP per cigarette ) was the Farsalinos study. So the total amount of diketones in 20 cigarettes would be 6560, which would be the equivalent of 6.5 ml of Frenilla. So you can see that the amount of diketones in cigarettes is not 100 times more than the most " offensive " e liquid in this regard.

There are some studies though ( Dr. Hubbs presentation to the FDA ) :


and the following toxicology report that suggest the fine particles in eliquid aerosol penetrated deeper into the lung than cigarette smoke ) :

DA_PD_monograph.pdf - Google Drive

 

[zoiDman]

...
DA_PD_monograph.pdf - Google Drive

Do you know the Original Source of the pdf file Above?

 

[roxynoodle]

When can we expect v2s of some liquids? I realize we really don't know much of anything in regards to vaping flavors,.diketones, etc, and are dealing with hypothetical suppositions. I also know I seem to love the flavors some consider to have the most potential risk

I will certainly try all the v2s in my flavor profile because I want to support NT. I also wouldn't mind reducing possible risk. NT is really what made my transition to vaping from smoking complete. Please keep us updated, and please continue providing test results.

 

[sonicdsl]

Here's what I know to be true (in my mind, and may or may not be true for others)*...

Switching to vaping helped me quit smoking four years ago on the day I received my first kit. Not a single one since. I found a vendor I liked and trusted for my liquid that helped me to stay on the "straight and narrow" for a majority of that time, and work my way down from 36mg to 12mg comfortably due to the variety of flavors and excellent service (some with, and some without, trace AP levels, etc). Unfortunately, on the one hand, said vendor had to shut their business due to a multitude of factors, and I miss them terribly. There was a great group of folks there, and owners I still care about a lot.

Fortunately, on the other hand, I found NT, as I was forced to re-join the hunt for an eliquid vendor. My first thought was NT, and I tested it, and stopped looking before the hunt was truly under way. I love this stuff, and am not scared away by the amounts of DK & AP thus far presented. Will it ever be an issue for me? Perhaps, but not now. And I've comfortably gone down to 6mg now with the help of NT (and never cared about reducing nic as I believe in what I've studied that there is no harm in nic; the reduction just happened). Will I keep going down in Nic? It is a possibility, but I've no plans at this time to do so.

Is there room for improvement? Of course. We are all only human, after all, and continuous improvement should be a call for all of us. I know it is for me, and it appears to be so at NT as well. So long as honesty is the top virtue here, I see no reason for me to be concerned.

Everyone has different checklists when looking for a vendor. We are all here because NT checks off many or all points on our list for one or more flavors. Variety and competition is good, as it typically pushes one to do what they do better.

Ultimately, I fully believe that I have reduced the harm I do to myself by orders of magnitude by which I feel are immeasurable, at least at this time. NT helps me to maintain that goal, and the transparency, flavors, and stated goals of NT helps NT to help me. And that, to me, is what's most important.

*Your mileage may vary, taxes not included, upon approved credit, you must play to win. Any statements here neither imply nor implicitly express any endorsements by anyone or any entity other than myself. (c) sonicdsl Have a fantastic day!

 

[Mazinny]

Do you know the Original Source of the pdf file Above?

I don't remember the original source. I believe he is one of the toxicologists contracted by AEMSA when they were in the process of finalizing their protocol re diketones though. I believe Dr. Kurt will be able to confirm or deny though, if you send him a pm. He is a consultant to AEMSA and i remember him stating in a different thread that they contracted a number of toxicologists.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't remember the original source. I believe he is one of the toxicologists contracted by AEMSA when they were in the process of finalizing their protocol re diketones though. I believe Dr. Kurt will be able to confirm or deny though, if you send him a pm. He is a consultant to AEMSA and i remember him stating in a different thread that they contracted a number of toxicologists.

Thank you.

I look forward to seeing it if you can.

 

[Lacit1707]

just curious... on the Acetylpropionyl results. what is the highest level accepted before it is no longer ND?

results for Nicoticket liquids are VERY high on the AP even though Diacetyl is ND

 

[Pinggolfer]

Clark posted his tests. If you don't like the numbers don't buy the juice. There are no proven studies to show diketones are dangerous for vapers. The majority of those wanting test results and argue here are DIY vapors but they have a need to meddle with vendors who they will never purchase from.

Clark should be thanked for helping smokers get off cigarettes.