CALIFORNIA VAPERS: Things are getting ugly...

[FlamingoTutu]

What possessed you to look to Vuse for help?

 

[Lessifer]

What possessed you to look to Vuse for help?

I went there because Leno and the other one have already been quoting from vuse and mark ten, so I figured that's where these numbers would come from too.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

That makes sense, but not the part where they look to those guys for advise. That's like asking N Korea to set prison standards in the US.

 

[zoiDman]

I went there because Leno and the other one have already been quoting from vuse and mark ten, so I figured that's where these numbers would come from too.

Which is Telling in and Of Itself.

 

[Lessifer]

That makes sense, but not the part where they look to those guys for advise. That's like asking N Korea to set prison standards in the US.

well, if their goal is to keep BT in control of "tobacco products" and to extract as much or more financially from those products, they went to the right place.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

well, if their goal is to keep BT in control of "tobacco products" and to extract as much or more financially from those products, they went to the right place.

Especially since truth has no foothold in this whole debacle.

 

[Uma]

I think it's time we hold our reps personally responsible for the mess they create. The bond/program payments need to come out of their salaries, not mine. I say no paycheck for them until the bills they made are paid!!!!!!

^^^this^^^
They should also pay we the people for all the work they force us to do when they try to trample our rights. I'd settle for imprisoning them whenever any of them creates an unconstitutional law. (Which is ALL the time anymore).

 

[nicnik]

Ummm... Not quite. That's another claim (this time from our side) that's not true, but is being repeated often, here and in the media. Greg Gutfeld, a big vaping advocate, is fond of saying that. I love his pro-vaping stance but this statement is simply not accurate.

Other than that, I agree with you.

I tell people "What you see is water vapor." If I can get them to listen further, I explain how it's just a drop of fluid producing a cloud of vapor, because PG and VG pull in moisture from the air. Seeing all that vapor, people think it's all vape liquid in vaporized form.

 

[skoony]

as mentioned in the bills referring to the taxes it seems to me
the State Board of Equalization will have something to do with
figuring out the tax mess. its hard to decipher what their role
will be.
i seem to recall Indiana and Arkansas have some sort of state board
that will determine or be responsible for any enacted legislation.
the scope of their power is hard to determine.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

The California Board of Equalization (BOE) is in charge of Tax Administration and Fee Collection. Think of them kinda like a California IRS.


Cigarette & Tobacco Products Tax - Special Taxes and Fees Division - Board of Equalization

Tax Rates - Special Taxes & Fees Division

I looked to see if there was an Analysis yet for these 2 New Tax Bills. But I didn't see one yet.

All Legislative Analyses 2015-16 Session - California State Board of Equalization

 

[Uma]

Have any matheticians calculated the money made from eCigs in calif?
If 1 million Californians quit smoking & bought vape gear, calif reaped ?$ in sales taxes.
If 10 thousand vendors & employees pay state (& county) taxes, permits, fees, unemployment ins, SSI, etc, how much did the state rake in?
If 10 thousand vendors & employees fold, due to over reaching taxes, fines, fees, permits, regulations, how much $ will calif lose today? Next year? 10 years from now?
Can calif rake in $ from jobless homeless people?
I need more coffee, this makes more sense in my head than on paper.

They're counting on Vapers going back to overpriced smokes, because a smoke break will get them through another 2 hours of work, but an eCig is a use as needed situation. By sabotaging vendors & consumers both, will calif make more money off smoke taxes? Will this $ be offset in healthcare costs? Doesn't smoking cost the state of over priced Pharma care, a fortune?
What about welfare, food stamps, housing supplements, ... the state will be paying out instead of raking in.

Somewhere in here, is a good calculation scenario. They only understand $.
Most of the next generation of addicted smokers have ALREADY tasted the difference between eCigs and real smokes. Are savvy to the health propaganda. Have their experimental "curiosity" satisfied. Have already switched. The states future addicts have already bypassed the matrix.
How much money will

 

[skoony]

The California Board of Equalization (BOE) is in charge of Tax Administration and Fee Collection. Think of them kinda like a California IRS.


Cigarette & Tobacco Products Tax - Special Taxes and Fees Division - Board of Equalization

Tax Rates - Special Taxes & Fees Division

I looked to see if there was an Analysis yet for these 2 New Tax Bills. But I didn't see one yet.

All Legislative Analyses 2015-16 Session - California State Board of Equalization

in other words the legislator has to determine the rates and
the State Board of Thank You For Breathing Here's Your Trophy
administers the tax?
regards
mike

 

[stevegmu]

Thee's no master plan. E-cigs simply represent a new tax opportunity. No matter how much in taxes are brought in, it is never enough, as increased 'revenue' will just be wasted as it usually is. There is almost never a problem with revenue; it is almost always a spending problem. I know someone who makes a lot more than I do, but he's always broke and my bank accounts probably represent what he should have in savings...

 

[zoiDman]

in other words the legislator has to determine the rates and
the State Board of Thank You For Breathing Here's Your Trophy
administers the tax?
regards
mike

That is Usually how it Basically Works for All Taxes.

A Legislative Body needs to Pass a Tax Law. And then it is up to some Agency to Administrate/Collect the Tax.

This is where the Confusion comes in with the Text in those New Bills. It sounds like they want a Vaper to pay the Same amount of Tax that a smoker will pay for a Pack of Cigarettes, $2.87/pack.

I just have No Clue how the conversion will be made from a Pack of Cigarette to what a Vaper Does/Uses?

And that Scares Me.

 

[skoony]

That is Usually how it Basically Works for All Taxes.

A Legislative Body needs to Pass a Tax Law. And then it is up to some Agency to Administrate/Collect the Tax.

This is where the Confusion comes in with the Text in those New Bills. It sounds like they want a Vaper to pay the Same amount of Tax that a smoker will pay for a Pack of Cigarettes, $2.87/pack.

I just have No Clue how the conversion will be made from a Pack of Cigarette to what a Vaper Does/Uses?

And that Scares Me.

that's what i got out of it.
this talking about drops per ml got me doing a little googling
and i discovered some interesting tid-bits. i found 4 online
converters using 20 drops per ml as a standard. the US standard
is 1/60 of a teaspoon or 1/360 of a fluid ounce which comes out
to just over 12 drops per ml. my own conversion utility uses
15.2 drops per ml.(European standard?). but there is also
the general consensus it depends on the dropper or,not
how many drops are in a ml but,how many drops you want
to get out of a ml. standard IV settings are 10,15,20,60 drops
per ml. i am assuming the 20 per ml relates to a specific size
dropper. fill it to 1 ml and you can squeeze 20 drops out of that ml.
regards
mike

 

[Lessifer]

Thee's no master plan. E-cigs simply represent a new tax opportunity. No matter how much in taxes are brought in, it is never enough, as increased 'revenue' will just be wasted as it usually is. There is almost never a problem with revenue; it is almost always a spending problem. I know someone who makes a lot more than I do, but he's always broke and my bank accounts probably represent what he should have in savings...

Yeah, I don't think there's a PLAN to push us back to smoking. I think this is politicians looking to apply taxes to an "easy" target, and one that they don't understand.

I doubt any of them have considered the possible consequences. Some vapers will go back to smoking, some will stop both entirely, and almost assuredly some will go to DIY/black market sources. Their increased revenue will no doubt be less than they expect, and they will have ticked off a lot of people in the process.

 

[Lessifer]

that's what i got out of it.
this talking about drops per ml got me doing a little googling
and i discovered some interesting tid-bits. i found 4 online
converters using 20 drops per ml as a standard. the US standard
is 1/60 of a teaspoon or 1/360 of a fluid ounce which comes out
to just over 12 drops per ml. my own conversion utility uses
15.2 drops per ml.(European standard?). but there is also
the general consensus it depends on the dropper or,not
how many drops are in a ml but,how many drops you want
to get out of a ml. standard IV settings are 10,15,20,60 drops
for ml. a am assuming the 20 per ml relates to of specific size
dropper. fill it to 1 ml and you can squeeze 20 drops out of that ml.
regards
mike

I think it also depends on the makeup of the drop. I believe, though I could be wrong, using a 1ml dropper filled with PG will yield more "drops" than that same dropper filled with VG.

 

[zoiDman]

that's what i got out of it.
this talking about drops per ml got me doing a little googling
and i discovered some interesting tid-bits. i found 4 online
converters using 20 drops per ml as a standard. the US standard
is 1/60 of a teaspoon or 1/360 of a fluid ounce which comes out
to just over 12 drops per ml. my own conversion utility uses
15.2 drops per ml.(European standard?). but there is also
the general consensus it depends on the dropper or,not
how many drops are in a ml but,how many drops you want
to get out of a ml. standard IV settings are 10,15,20,60 drops
per ml. i am assuming the 20 per ml relates to a specific size
dropper. fill it to 1 ml and you can squeeze 20 drops out of that ml.
regards
mike

The Volume of a Drop is dependent on a few Parameters. The Cross-Sectional Area of the Dropper Opening The Viscosity of the Liquid and Surface Tension the Liquid exhibits.

So Drops per ml can Vary Significantly. Though Volume from Drop to Drop is Remarkable Equivalent.

But how does Any of this Tie Into a Tax on an e-liquid and or a "Tobacco Product"?

 

[skoony]

I think it also depends on the makeup of the drop. I believe, though I could be wrong, using a 1ml dropper filled with PG will yield more "drops" than that same dropper filled with VG.

quite right. depending on the diameter of the tip surface tension does the rest.
regards
mike

 

[skoony]

The Volume of a Drop is dependent on a few Parameters. The Cross-Sectional Area of the Dropper Opening The Viscosity of the Liquid and Surface Tension the Liquid exhibits.

So Drops per ml can Vary Significantly. Though Volume from Drop to Drop is Remarkable Equivalent.

But how does Any of this Tie Into a Tax on an e-liquid and or a "Tobacco Product"?

California is looking for equivalency isn't it.
sooner or later they are going to have to come up with some sort
of conversion method. if for say they determine an equivalence of
24 US drops per pack,that's almost 2 ml. if however they determine
its 20 drops from a dropper calculated at 20 drops per ml,thats
1 ml per pack.
regards
mike