Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

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Moonbogg

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When you're ready to have an intelligent adult discussion about the issue, I will be happy to oblige. Until then I will ignore you as I would a child standing with his fingers in his ears repeating: "I'm right, you're wrong" over and over again.

I don't want anyone reading to be under the impression that inhalation of diketones might be safe, because that is clearly not true. So, for the sake of the readers, are you willing to at least concede that the expert opinion of inhalation of diketones is dangerous? If you can at least admit that much, then I'll open my brain for a more intelligent conversation with you because I'm dying to hear why you think vaping diketones is safe.
 
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stevegmu

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I don't want anyone reading to be under the impression that inhalation of diketones might be safe, because that is clearly not true. So, for the sake of the readers, are you willing to at least concede that the expert opinion of inhalation of diketones is dangerous? If you can at least admit that much, then I'll open my brain for a more intelligent conversation with you because I'm dying to hear why you think vaping diketones is safe.

I don't think anyone really takes the activists seriously; like when they try to tell people nicotine is a harmless, non addictive substance. That's why the anti vaping legislation passes willy nilly. The activists do more harm than good. They simply preach to the choir and drive non vapers and even vapers against their cause. It is sad they try to convince new vapers diacetyl is ok and to go ahead and vape it...
 
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Pinggolfer

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Don't Know?

Some might argue that there can be a Threshold that once Reached, what is Going to Happen is Going to Happen.

Would your Smoking Analogy seem more Pertinent if you had made the Comparison of a Pack a Day Smoker to one who Smokes 2 Cigarettes per day?

No answer to that question as many have died from lung cancer and never smoked. Smoking can cause lung cancer, but so can many other things. It's a crap shoot and no one can say how many cigarettes will do you in.
 

Moonbogg

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if you need any help building coils or If you need any help at all with DIY don't hesitate to ask or PM me, you should always have choices.

Thanks man. Despite my screaming about diketones, I'm not your enemy (or anyone else's) and I'll gladly accept help with DIY. I build coils for my kayfun and have the microcoil down really well. I've just never experimented with anything over 20 watts.
 

Jman8

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Just for Talking, and to Illuminate all the "Is this" or "This isn't" for a second. Say ALL Flavorings are Harmful in the Long Term. I know. I Know. No Study Data. But just for This Example, say they ALL are.

If you Reduce the Amount of Flavoring(s) in an e-Liquid, aren't you also Reducing Risk and or Harm?

1/2 as Much Flavoring =?= 1/2 as Much Risk/Harm
1/4 as Much Flavoring =?= 1/4 as Much Risk/Harm
1/10 as Much Flavoring =?= 1/10 as Much Risk/Harm

No One is Telling you have to go to Unflavored. No One is Telling you Anything.

But if a Person Just Doesn't Know what might be the Next Flavoring(s) that is Shown to Cause Harm, or they are Using Flavoring(s) that have Known Links to Harm, Isn't using Less of these Flavoring(s) at lest something that a Person would Want to Consider?

Or even Try?

You could play this hypothetical game with anything in life. So if your question at end of the hypothetical was even a little bit serious, then why wouldn't you play this hypothetical game with everything. Like just start with eLiquid in general. Say ALL eLiquid is harmful. Half as much eLiquid as you do now would be half the harm. 1/10th would be 1/10 harm. Isn't less eLiquid something to consider if you are willing to accept all the above? Or even try to go with less? Why not just go with zero eLiquid if that is an option available to you?

Perhaps in this thread, one day in the next billion years, we'll be shown that flavoring does cause harm. Ya know, so that we can make an actually informed choice rather than potentially informed choice.
 

Moonbogg

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You could play this hypothetical game with anything in life. So if your question at end of the hypothetical was even a little bit serious, then why wouldn't you play this hypothetical game with everything. Like just start with eLiquid in general. Say ALL eLiquid is harmful. Half as much eLiquid as you do now would be half the harm. 1/10th would be 1/10 harm. Isn't less eLiquid something to consider if you are willing to accept all the above? Or even try to go with less? Why not just go with zero eLiquid if that is an option available to you?

Perhaps in this thread, one day in the next billion years, we'll be shown that flavoring does cause harm. Ya know, so that we can make an actually informed choice rather than potentially informed choice.

Look man, this is not hypothetical. Saying diketone dangers are hypothetical is like saying, "well, we know arsenic will kill you, but what if you mix it with lemon pudding? No proof that arsenic in lemon pudding will kill you".
 

stevegmu

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Look man, this is not hypothetical. Saying diketone dangers are hypothetical is like saying, "well, we know arsenic will kill you, but what if you mix it with lemon pudding? No proof that arsenic in lemon pudding will kill you".

Regulations exist, in part, because some are incapable of making wise decisions...
 
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sparkky1

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Lessifer

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zoiDman

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Yeah i know very little about Butyric Acid. Only what i have read Kurt say on this forum, and a few vendors who have switched. They all seem to agree that it tastes like vomit if anything more than " tiny " amounts are used , but nothing specific as far as numbers. I am not sure if i have ever tasted it myself.

Here is a Great Quote from another Thread...

Butyric acid is present in, and is the main distinctive smell of, human vomit.

Butyric Acid - Alternative to Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl but Toxic by EPA? | E-Cigarette Forum

LOL
 
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Moonbogg

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More people die from heart related diseases than from lung cancer. Up to 30% of the heart related deaths are due to smoking cigarettes. I would have to say vaping is a life saver against heart disease and strokes. Do diketones effect the heart?

I don't think so. It would be a shame to avoid heart disease only to come down with COPD and not be able to breathe though.
 
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Jman8

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Look man, this is not hypothetical. Saying diketone dangers are hypothetical is like saying, "well, we know arsenic will kill you, but what if you mix it with lemon pudding? No proof that arsenic in lemon pudding will kill you".

Look, it is CLEARLY a hypothetical. You have ZERO evidence, none, zilch showing harm to vapers by vaping diketones. Thus, all you have is hypothetical danger. That is ALL THAT YOU HAVE in this discussion. You earlier asked another member to admit that inhaling diketones is dangerous, but there is plenty of evidence around that people have been inhaling diketones for a long long long time. Thus, it is not dangerous. It is also not harmless, but there is NOTHING ON THIS PLANET that is harmless. When you can name (and establish) something that is harmless, then we can move out of the hypothetical points that you are consistently making. But part of your point is that vaping would be safer without these chemicals. Reality don't work like that. It is VERY PLAUSIBLE that vaping could be more harmful with these compounds removed, and just as we don't have data to say it is harmful, we also don't have data to say if it were removed, it would be less harmful.

And so it does come down to PERSONAL CHOICE. At that level of decision making, hypotheticals really don't matter, cause a person will do what a person desires. If your personal choice is to not vape liquid with diketones, then have at it. Enjoy your vape. Vape on.

But to step onto open forum and claim danger when you have provided ZERO evidence to back that claim up is deserving of the responses you've gotten. And I am enjoying this conversation because it is showing me that this issue truly is the type opposition would throw at us and that those who use fear to make their claims demonstrate routinely to not think their issues through. And helps immensely that you provide nothing to back up your main points. Makes the credibility factor go way down. And so besides hypotheticals, what you really have in this discussion is YOU ARE LYING TO YOURSELF AND TO THE WORLD ABOUT THE DANGERS OF DIKETONES!
 

stevegmu

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I don't think so. It would be a shame to avoid heart disease only to come down with COPD and not be able to breathe though.

My guess is those who so adamantly defend diacetyl already have COPD and don't care anymore...
Interestingly enough, nicotine has shown to have adverse affects on those with heart issues...
 
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retired1

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So, just how harmful is it? Let's take a look at aspartame. The media has been telling us for years that's it's bad for us and bad things will happen if we ingest it. Right?

Opinion: Sugar-free soda is safe - CNN.com

Further work using data from the National Cancer Institute showed that the increase in brain tumors really began in 1973, long before aspartame was introduced. Moreover, the increases in incidence of cancer were seen primarily in the elderly, which as a group, was not the major consumer of diet soda.

And there's more. A randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled trial showed that aspartame didn't affect memory, behavior or mood. And a study published in 2006 followed more than 285,000 men and almost 190,000 women and couldn't detect any relationship between aspartame and brain or blood cancer.

So, we have a study that attempted to link an increase in cancers with something that didn't even exist at the time the increases started to occur. But that didn't stop the media from jumping on the "Oh my god, the sky is falling" train.

The same type of reaction is seen due to some **cough** studies that attempt to link diketones with lung issues. Personally, I prefer my science verified by multiple sources before making a final decision. Yet some insist on jumping the gun without any valid studies to back them up. And I'm talking peer reviewed studies that are able to be reproduced. Until that happens, running around like Chicken Little only serves to strengthen misconceptions and junk science. And quite frankly, this is the last thing we need.
 

retired1

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I don't want anyone reading to be under the impression that inhalation of diketones might be safe, because that is clearly not true. So, for the sake of the readers, are you willing to at least concede that the expert opinion of inhalation of diketones is dangerous? If you can at least admit that much, then I'll open my brain for a more intelligent conversation with you because I'm dying to hear why you think vaping diketones is safe.

If you can cough up studies, that have been peer reviewed and the consensus is unanimous that they are indeed harmful, going around stating an opinion as fact isn't kosher. Either cough up the studies that lend credence to your statements, or start stating this is an opinion.
 

zoiDman

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No answer to that question as many have died from lung cancer and never smoked. Smoking can cause lung cancer, but so can many other things. It's a crap shoot and no one can say how many cigarettes will do you in.

The Big Problem with doing any Research to Anything Smoking related is there is SO MUCH Agenda Driven and Slanted information out there. Kinda hard to Sift thru the Junk to find anything that might be Meaningful.

When I was a Smoker, I read Many studies that Claimed that Smoking less that 5 Cigarettes/day Dramatically reduced a whole Host of Health Problems vs. PAD Smoking. And with each Cigarette below 5, the Risk/Harm dropped Exponentially.

The Problem was, I read Many Studies that said it Didn't. Hard to say what is Going on Sometimes.

BTW - It looks like you Don't want to answer this Question that I have asked Numerous Times...

"How you know Diketones are worse then Ethy Buryrate?"

That's Cool. You don't have to provide any Supporting Info. But think of it the Next Time you see a member getting Called Out for not providing information about something the say.

:)
 
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Moonbogg

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Thus, it is not dangerous. It is also not harmless, but there is NOTHING ON THIS PLANET that is harmless.

YOU ARE LYING TO YOURSELF AND TO THE WORLD ABOUT THE DANGERS OF DIKETONES!

I'm not lying. I didn't invent the fact that diketones are connected to lung damage, both in the real world to varying degrees, and in animal studies. People continue to claim that cigarette smokers haven't been harmed by diketones, yet COPD is common in smokers. How people fail to make that connection and see reason for caution here is a mystery to me...unless the below is true

My guess is those who so adamantly defend diacetyl already have COPD and don't care anymore...

I would have to wonder the same thing, but I don't know. All I do know is that my lungs are still, luckily, working pretty good and I'd like to keep them that way. I would also like to see other people's lungs stay healthy as well.
 
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Lessifer

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I don't want anyone reading to be under the impression that inhalation of diketones might be safe, because that is clearly not true. So, for the sake of the readers, are you willing to at least concede that the expert opinion of inhalation of diketones is dangerous? If you can at least admit that much, then I'll open my brain for a more intelligent conversation with you because I'm dying to hear why you think vaping diketones is safe.
I will concede that the expert consensus is that diketones are an avoidable risk.

The red emphasis is mine.

Diacetyl is a diketone flavouring agent that is commonly employed for buttery taste as well as other purposes. Industrial exposure to flavouring agents, particularly diacetyl, has recently been associated with bronchiolitis obliterans, a severe respiratory illness producing fibrosis and obstruction of the small airways. This has been most commonly reported in the microwave popcorn production industry, but it has occurred elsewhere. In addition to bronchiolitis obliterans, spirometry abnormalities (fixed airflow obstruction) and respiratory symptoms have been associated with exposure. A direct effect on the respiratory epithelium with the disorganised fibrotic repair appears most likely as the underlying mechanism. Current data suggest that diacetyl is the agent responsible, although it is possible that diacetyl is simply a marker for another causative agent.
Diacetyl-induced lung disease. - PubMed - NCBI

However, your position that they WILL kill you is sensational and unfounded. Your assertion that vaping liquids with diketones is worse than smoking is ridiculous.
In our response, we used the NIOSH arguments to further support the appropriateness of our approach. In particular, we mentioned that the targeted population for e-cigarette use is the smoking population. Whether sensitive or not, these people are exposed to a large number of toxicants on a daily basis for many years. Additionally, we emphasized that a risk level of 1 in 1000 developing lung dysfunction represents a tremendous benefit for smokers who have a 1 in 3-4 risk of developing chronic obstructive lung disease in their lifetime. Additionally, we provided further evidence from the literature on the levels of diacetyl in tobacco cigarette smoke. Studies by Fujioka and Shibamoto and by Moree-Testa and Saint-Jalm found diacetyl in smoke at levels similar to the study by Pierce et al. Finally, we accepted the argument by NIOSH that we underestimated the ventilation rate of workers. That was a conscious decision, because we wanted to use the most stringent criteria in the comparison. Thus, we used the worst-case scenario of resting ventilation rate, which underestimated the safety-limit exposure set by NIOSH. Based on mild and moderate activity, the NIOSH-estimated safety exposure limit would be 86micrograms/day (mild activity) and 302micrograms/day (moderate activity) for diacetyl, and 132micrograms/day (mild activity) and 638micrograms/day (moderate activity) for acetyl propionyl. Our initial calculations considering resting ventilation rate was 65micrograms/day for diacetyl and 137micrograms/day for acetyl propionyl. Thus, the NIOSH-set limits are approximately 50-400% higher than what we considered in our original study, using the worst case scenario.

In conclusion, it is important to provide a comparative measure of exposure to diacetyl and acetyl propionyl from e-cigarette use, considering that the targeted population is smokers who have a high risk of developing disease and are continuously exposed to several toxins (including diacetyl and acetyl propionyl). In any case, we made clear that diacetyl and acetyl propionyl represent an avoidable risk and every effort should be made to remove them from e-liquids. In our opinion, the major impact of our study is that it alerted the industry to take care of this issue. Anecdotal evidence suggests that there is a lot of improvement in this area, and we believe that a future study is needed to evaluate and verify whether diacetyl and acetyl propionyl have been removed from e-liquids.
NIOSH submits letter to the editor concerning our diacetyl study

Yes, the experts see it as an avoidable risk. Some experts see vaping as a whole as an avoidable risk. They all see smoking as an avoidable risk.
 
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