Asolo by ijoy mod claims Temp control with any kind of coil/wire
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Contact resistance? What do you mean and why is this important to you?
I think using kanthal in some type of temp protection arrangement (not temp control -- that won't work with existing technology) will fade in importance in less than a year. The only reason I can see to be concerned about it is because of the millions of existing pre-built coil heads and attys made with kanthal whose owners want in on the temp protection/control wave. As more an more attys and premade coils become available made with Ni or Ti, nobody will care about kanthal anymore.
As a coil builder, I use Ti. It works. I can oxidize it to the purple/blue range and make contact coils. I can make spaced coils, etc., etc. Temp control using Ti is spot on.
up till now... the TC mods basically work on the same principal as a slandered thermal couple. ie... because we know how much Ni/Ti resistance changes over temp. Being that their change is large enough to measure, we are able to measure the voltage drop across the coil, and thus, know what the temp is of the coil. The issue with Kanthal is that unlike Ni/Ti, the Resistance does not change that much over temp. So to measure it, the mod would have to be supper supper sensitive.
As for the need or Kanthal temp control when Ni and Ti are being done just fine now... It is basically in response to the latest scare or idea that Ni and Ti do some nasty things when you heat them up... I am not going to debate all the details of how hot the wire gets, or possible if or not your/our rigs are pushing the limits of those temps... All I will say to that is that when I look in a store (high end or cheap) for cook ware... (pots/pans.. etc...) that Ni or Ni plating is not an option... "why?" the answer to that is two fold...
1) cause we know Ni does nasty stuff when it gets hot... so why use it to cook with??? (really smart reputable company's/ppl did the a ton of research not related to Vaping many years ago to know this)
2) the other thing that we learned from all that research (years ago) was that actually, many ppl have some allergies to Ni... maybe as many as 20%? given that large number in comparison to other alloys/metals.. It made no sense to bother making products used for cooking out of something that almost a 1/4 of the ppl would have a reaction to... add in #1.. and it was a no brainier...
so as a whole... everyone in the industry basically just "black listed" Ni for anything related to cooking.
Interesting info about Kanthal is that it was actually developed and produce because of the "un-changing resistance over temp". original uses were and still are in heater/dryers, etc... they just have a much better way to regulate and control the temp... and they should.. given all the space they have to build a circuit to monitor it...
I don't know if the TC craze will last or not... and I don't know if Ni is a bad choice for your wire... But... If I have a choice btw TC on Ni or TC on Kanthal.... I have to pick Kanthal... At least for now... haha who knows?? someone may come out next week and show evidence that Kanthal is radio active at high temps... lol
On a side note... I have the Asolo 200W TC.... and it does actually work... there may be some limitations about how you build the coils.. ie.. does not like crazy low numbers... or crazy sculpted Clapton tiger tail stove top horseshoe wicked etc... coils... But a normal .5 to 2ish ohm kanthal coil seems to be working.... at least to me / for me... 8)
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People from the mech world would be familiar with the issue of using low resistance coils such as subohm coils;
for example there used to be alot of interest in copper mech mods;
what some people might call 'voltage drop', I am describing in terms of contact resistance.
In other words, the losses or variations in ohms that you get from the mod itself becomes more important when you use low ohm coils such as subohm coils, especially when you get down to the 0.1 ohm level.
It is not kanthal that is the issue, it is the ohms.
When you run a 2 ohm coil, a 0.1 ohm variation you get from the 510 connector or some corrosion on the mod threading is not going to have as much of a performance effect as runing a 0.2 ohm coil and getting the same 0.1 ohm variation due to 510 connector contact or threading corrosion or other points of contact.
Ok... guessing here.. .but I think I have a very good idea as to how this Asolo is doing the DHP on Kanthal...
as for the issue of very small resistance change on the wire as it goes over temp... I would imagine that they have some sort of voltage op amp in play to magnify the very small voltage to a lager one, in which, the change of that new "bigger" voltage will also be magnified and as such, much easier to read/measure.
not saying this is the circuit.. but this is a basic op amp layout....
Not sure you will recall, but I said "think out side of the box" on this one... and that is what I think they are doing in fact....
I have been trying to get my head around how they know the tank is low on juice... Well, I think I got it... they are measuring a sign wave/ signal some how in relation how it is "attenuated" by the actual juice. Also known as "capacitance". Think of it like this... If I put in a square wave of X onto a wire sitting in the air (no cotton/juice), then the only effect on the square wave is the wire... but if I take that coil/wire and cover it in a fluid like Oil that has a very big effect of Freq and Amplitude, then even though the sin wave is the same going in and it is still being pushed through the same wire, the output, or what makes it to the other side of the wire, is going to be drastically effected... not just in size, but shape of it as well.. just like if I put a capacitor in parallel with the inductor/wire.
anyway... was playing with this idea for a day or two... and guess what I found... ?? A single chip that cost about 5 $'s and basiclly does the whole measurement for you... ie... no need for a circuit to do this at all... It produces the sine, and measures it, and even puts out a digital number to reflect what is happening... ie.. gives you something you could use on a TTL shut down circuit... or "GO-NOGO" type safe guard... which.. my guess might look like a little blinking water drop LED and a kill circuit to keep me from firing again... until enough juice makes it way back over the coil to change the shape of the sine wave back to a shape that is considered good.. which would then reset the TTL... and close the loop for me to fire the atty again...
below is just a clip of the chip I found.. there may be more.. made by other companies.. with little different configurations... ??? (would guess so)
The new AD5933/AD5934 impedance-to-digital converters (IDC) put direct digital synthesis (DDS), analog-to-digital conversion, and DSP on a single chip. The IDC measures impedances ranging from 100 ohms to 10 megohms, excited with an on-chip frequency generator of up to 100 kHz. The response signal from the impedance is sampled by the on-chip ADC and its discrete Fourier transform (DFT) is processed by an on-chip DSP. The DFT algorithm returns both a real (R) and imaginary (I) data word at each frequency point (for a sweep), enabling phase and amplitude impedance calculations based on an initial calibration. The AD5933/AD5934 are available in small 16-lead SSOP packages at 1k unit pricing of $4.35 (AD5934) and $6.65 (AD5933). For additional product information, go to www.analog.com/CDC andwww.analog.com/IDC.
The point is... giving the right time, support... I absolutely can see a way to pull this off... It may not be the best way... But then again, I am not an engineer and I don't build e-cigs for a living either... I have to believe that a professional could actually pull this off fairly easy?
AT LEAST... THAT IS MY GUESS... HAHAHA
as for the issue of very small resistance change on the wire as it goes over temp... I would imagine that they have some sort of voltage op amp in play to magnify the very small voltage to a lager one, in which, the change of that new "bigger" voltage will also be magnified and as such, much easier to read/measure.
not saying this is the circuit.. but this is a basic op amp layout....
Not sure you will recall, but I said "think out side of the box" on this one... and that is what I think they are doing in fact....
I have been trying to get my head around how they know the tank is low on juice... Well, I think I got it... they are measuring a sign wave/ signal some how in relation how it is "attenuated" by the actual juice. Also known as "capacitance". Think of it like this... If I put in a square wave of X onto a wire sitting in the air (no cotton/juice), then the only effect on the square wave is the wire... but if I take that coil/wire and cover it in a fluid like Oil that has a very big effect of Freq and Amplitude, then even though the sin wave is the same going in and it is still being pushed through the same wire, the output, or what makes it to the other side of the wire, is going to be drastically effected... not just in size, but shape of it as well.. just like if I put a capacitor in parallel with the inductor/wire.
anyway... was playing with this idea for a day or two... and guess what I found... ?? A single chip that cost about 5 $'s and basiclly does the whole measurement for you... ie... no need for a circuit to do this at all... It produces the sine, and measures it, and even puts out a digital number to reflect what is happening... ie.. gives you something you could use on a TTL shut down circuit... or "GO-NOGO" type safe guard... which.. my guess might look like a little blinking water drop LED and a kill circuit to keep me from firing again... until enough juice makes it way back over the coil to change the shape of the sine wave back to a shape that is considered good.. which would then reset the TTL... and close the loop for me to fire the atty again...
below is just a clip of the chip I found.. there may be more.. made by other companies.. with little different configurations... ??? (would guess so)
The new AD5933/AD5934 impedance-to-digital converters (IDC) put direct digital synthesis (DDS), analog-to-digital conversion, and DSP on a single chip. The IDC measures impedances ranging from 100 ohms to 10 megohms, excited with an on-chip frequency generator of up to 100 kHz. The response signal from the impedance is sampled by the on-chip ADC and its discrete Fourier transform (DFT) is processed by an on-chip DSP. The DFT algorithm returns both a real (R) and imaginary (I) data word at each frequency point (for a sweep), enabling phase and amplitude impedance calculations based on an initial calibration. The AD5933/AD5934 are available in small 16-lead SSOP packages at 1k unit pricing of $4.35 (AD5934) and $6.65 (AD5933). For additional product information, go to www.analog.com/CDC andwww.analog.com/IDC.
The point is... giving the right time, support... I absolutely can see a way to pull this off... It may not be the best way... But then again, I am not an engineer and I don't build e-cigs for a living either... I have to believe that a professional could actually pull this off fairly easy?
AT LEAST... THAT IS MY GUESS... HAHAHA
Ok... guessing here.. .but I think I have a very good idea as to how this Asolo is doing the DHP on Kanthal...
as for the issue of very small resistance change on the wire as it goes over temp... I would imagine that they have some sort of voltage op amp in play to magnify the very small voltage to a lager one, in which, the change of that new "bigger" voltage will also be magnified and as such, much easier to read/measure.
not saying this is the circuit.. but this is a basic op amp layout....
Not sure you will recall, but I said "think out side of the box" on this one... and that is what I think they are doing in fact....
I have been trying to get my head around how they know the tank is low on juice... Well, I think I got it... they are measuring a sign wave/ signal some how in relation how it is "attenuated" by the actual juice. Also known as "capacitance". Think of it like this... If I put in a square wave of X onto a wire sitting in the air (no cotton/juice), then the only effect on the square wave is the wire... but if I take that coil/wire and cover it in a fluid like Oil that has a very big effect of Freq and Amplitude, then even though the sin wave is the same going in and it is still being pushed through the same wire, the output, or what makes it to the other side of the wire, is going to be drastically effected... not just in size, but shape of it as well.. just like if I put a capacitor in parallel with the inductor/wire.
anyway... was playing with this idea for a day or two... and guess what I found... ?? A single chip that cost about 5 $'s and basiclly does the whole measurement for you... ie... no need for a circuit to do this at all... It produces the sine, and measures it, and even puts out a digital number to reflect what is happening... ie.. gives you something you could use on a TTL shut down circuit... or "GO-NOGO" type safe guard... which.. my guess might look like a little blinking water drop LED and a kill circuit to keep me from firing again... until enough juice makes it way back over the coil to change the shape of the sine wave back to a shape that is considered good.. which would then reset the TTL... and close the loop for me to fire the atty again...
below is just a clip of the chip I found.. there may be more.. made by other companies.. with little different configurations... ??? (would guess so)
The new AD5933/AD5934 impedance-to-digital converters (IDC) put direct digital synthesis (DDS), analog-to-digital conversion, and DSP on a single chip. The IDC measures impedances ranging from 100 ohms to 10 megohms, excited with an on-chip frequency generator of up to 100 kHz. The response signal from the impedance is sampled by the on-chip ADC and its discrete Fourier transform (DFT) is processed by an on-chip DSP. The DFT algorithm returns both a real (R) and imaginary (I) data word at each frequency point (for a sweep), enabling phase and amplitude impedance calculations based on an initial calibration. The AD5933/AD5934 are available in small 16-lead SSOP packages at 1k unit pricing of $4.35 (AD5934) and $6.65 (AD5933). For additional product information, go to www.analog.com/CDC andwww.analog.com/IDC.
The point is... giving the right time, support... I absolutely can see a way to pull this off... It may not be the best way... But then again, I am not an engineer and I don't build e-cigs for a living either... I have to believe that a professional could actually pull this off fairly easy?
AT LEAST... THAT IS MY GUESS... HAHAHA
The way they all do it is measuring resistance which amounts to measuring voltage drop across the coil with a known amount of current. The challenge of measuring very small resistances is the low amount of voltage drop for a given current. If low current is used for measuring, the voltage drop is also low. At a point, what we want to measure fades into the background electrical noise of the environment and it can't be reliably measured. The laws of physics are unbreakable even in Chinese manufacturing plants.
No problem, up the reference current used to measure, but this adds heat to both the coil being tested as well as the reference, which then affects the measurement. Measuring to single mOhms repeatably is not easy and measuring nano-ohms really requires a lab environment.
I think they are on the edge of what's possible and discovered it works "close enough." True TC with Kanthal? I don't see it happening without using a different technique -- separate thermocouple or some other way to know the temp of the coil.
so you are saying that it is impossible that someone decided to sample off the voltage that is hitting coil... take that sample and run an op amp to boast the levels to a readable level?
I am not saying that this is "true TC"... but it could be a way to increase the dynamic range.
I am also not convinced that Asolo on Kanthal, is doing the same thing that "everyone else is"... Other wise, everyone would be claiming they do the same thing as this Box....
I don't know for sure they have pulled it off 100%... but, It does seem to be doing good so far... which, is a lot more than anyone else... So far.... interested to see what and who does the next jump... and before you say... "it can't be done"... just remember that it was not that long ago.. we thought the world was flat...
I am not saying that this is "true TC"... but it could be a way to increase the dynamic range.
I am also not convinced that Asolo on Kanthal, is doing the same thing that "everyone else is"... Other wise, everyone would be claiming they do the same thing as this Box....
I don't know for sure they have pulled it off 100%... but, It does seem to be doing good so far... which, is a lot more than anyone else... So far.... interested to see what and who does the next jump... and before you say... "it can't be done"... just remember that it was not that long ago.. we thought the world was flat...
Yes, it's possible and they all do that. But that voltage is the voltage delivered by the device. The voltage to be measured is the voltage drop across the coil. A tiny change in resistance yields a tiny change in voltage drop. That's what has to be measured -- that tiny change.
Can you explain where they are taking the actual measurement at? What side of the coil? the positive or the neg side? or if they are doing that some other way?
Across the coil. There is a voltage drop across the coil that can be (and is) measured. With a known precision source of current, the measured voltage drop allows calculation of resistance.
In terms of how to do dry coil protection, consider this: We can't measure the temperature of the coil accurately. That's given. What characteristics of a dry coil are different from a wet one? Suppose we measure the resistance of the coil many times per second to form a statistical center of a constellation of n measurements. Let's call that center C. We then track dC/dt for each puff. Employing rate independent hysteresis, we look for the dC/dt that's different, much larger, from the others. When we find that, the coil is dry and we flip -- to "dry coil."
In other words, we don't know what the temperature is exactly, we can't determine that accurately, but we do know when the temperature is rising a lot faster than it has over the history of use since the last "new coil yes" input. When the temperature rises faster than "normal'" it's dry. Voila.
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believe it or not.. I kind followed you there...
only question I have now is... when you say "we" do you mean that everyone/all TC mods do it this way? or just the Asolo in regards to Kanthal?
and you still did not tell me "where the drop is actually being measured circuit wise... ie... at the input side of the coil in ref to GND? cause that would be "before" the "drop"... and the other side of the coil is "GND"... so the voltage is 0V...
not trying to bug... just learn... 8)
only question I have now is... when you say "we" do you mean that everyone/all TC mods do it this way? or just the Asolo in regards to Kanthal?
and you still did not tell me "where the drop is actually being measured circuit wise... ie... at the input side of the coil in ref to GND? cause that would be "before" the "drop"... and the other side of the coil is "GND"... so the voltage is 0V...
not trying to bug... just learn... 8)
We is the figurative we. Like what if we did it exactly the way I describe. Wouldn't we end up with a mod that does dry coil protection without ever knowing the exact temp? Since what I propose is a simple solution to the problem, my guess is that's what asolo is doing.
For the voltage drop measurement, place your meter probes across the coil and fire it. You will see a voltage close to the battery voltage. If you were to also measure the current flow, you could then calculate the resistance of the coil using Ohm's law E = IR. Say E, voltage drop, was measured at 3.700 volts. Let's say current, I, was measured at 10.000 amps. R, resistance of the coil, is thus E/I = 0.370 Ohms. One way to look at it and communicate the concept is that a 0.370 Ohm resistor will develop a 3.700 volt drop across it with 10.000 amps of current flowing through it.
You can also then measure at the battery and use kirchoff's law to calculate the resistance of a mech and battery itself, but we'll leave that for another day.
I believe what has happened is the earlier implementations tried to measure the temperature; basically they tried to be unecessarily accurate.
For example I believe evolv's chip was designed to get temperature control correct to 20 degrees, and they did it using nickel.
What I think asolo did is toss out the requirement to get actual accurate temperature, and just allow the user to be able to reduce temperature limit.
So essentially, when you use your vape if you get a dry hit, you hit the down button. After that you don't get dry hits unless something changes like if you change your coil or maybe if you change the liquid.
With a vv/vw device if your wick goes dry, your coils can get RED HOT. That could be like a thousand degrees.
Even if you could only press a button a couple times and end up limiting your coil from going higher than 300 degrees, you get a better vape.
It's a little beyond that, as the dry hit prevention works across all wattage settings
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping
Devil Dog, did you have a chance to consider my guess at what they're doing?
Asolo by ijoy mod claims Temp control with any kind of coil/wire
I think I might have it.
It's possible, but leads me to wonder why, if that's the case, the "training" process affects the DHP as much as it does. Personally I think multiple things are going on at once. I believe the regulation side is very possibly what you mentioned there, which is why we set a "taste" instead of temp. The DHP seems to operate independently of this, across all ranges of power, and across the other wire types as well. This leads me to believe it is a separate, independent process
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping
TC on NI or TI is mostly just temperature guessing or approximation.
The same tank with NI or TI coil will vape differently on different mods with the temp set the same.
All TC is still pretty crude in the vapin world.
The current Temp control with Kanthal is just no burn control. Which imho is all we really need. Set the watts and get no burn control. what else is needed?
The same tank with NI or TI coil will vape differently on different mods with the temp set the same.
All TC is still pretty crude in the vapin world.
The current Temp control with Kanthal is just no burn control. Which imho is all we really need. Set the watts and get no burn control. what else is needed?
No, it's actually more then just burn control....beyond the dry hit protection, there is active and reactive regulation happening. It's doing what regular TC mods do for temp, but set to taste....I can avow that taste control is a real, viable thing. You can see the regulation respond actively to things like varying your draw strength, changing the airflow over the coil.
Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping
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