FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[oplholik]

i haven't seen anywhere that he said he would veto them. where's your source/reference for that?

Now that I have thought about it more, I believe that it was included in a budget bill that he would veto.

 

[roxynoodle]

Now that I have thought about it more, I believe that it was included in a budget bill that he would veto.

Yeah, I think it was that agriculture bill.

At any rate, its speculated the Cole bill only has a 4% chance of passing.

 

[oplholik]

This close to the end of the year, with all the holidays, will they even try?

 

[haleysdadda]

This close to the end of the year, with all the holidays, will they even try?

And an election year starting? Anything getting done is highly unlikely.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I don't want to seem the fatalist, I'm not, but to recall W.C. Fields..“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull….” So I wouldn't be surprised to see a quiet Rose Garden announcement as an early Christmas present. With so much happening in season and a new crisis looming each week it would seem we'll be too deep in the above for anyone to remember by next Nov that the government took over yet one more industry in 2015. On to the next.

Hope more of us realize soon how important to get the message to them all — I will not submit. Matter of fact, CASAA is probing on this meme in their most recent survey which should be in your mailbox. Get it to as many as possible, and soon…

CASAA E-Cigarette Survey

Government fails when we deprive them of the revenue they seek. Make them certain. Our consumer power trumps their tax and control addiction.

There's our Thanksgiving present. Let CASAA know they can run with it. Count on it.

Good luck.

 

[inspects]

I don't want to seem the fatalist, I'm not, but to recall W.C. Fields..“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull….” So I wouldn't be surprised to see a quiet Rose Garden announcement as an early Christmas present. With so much happening in season and a new crisis looming each week it would seem we'll be too deep in the above for anyone to remember by next Nov that the government took over yet one more industry in 2015. On to the next.

Hope more of us realize soon how important to get the message to them all — I will not submit. Matter of fact, CASAA is probing on this meme in their most recent survey which should be in your mailbox. Get it to as many as possible, and soon…

CASAA E-Cigarette Survey

Government fails when we deprive them of the revenue they seek. Make them certain. Our consumer power trumps their tax and control addiction.

There's our Thanksgiving present. Let CASAA know they can run with it. Count on it.

Good luck.

Thanks Mac, I received the email this morning, then forwarded to everyone in my contact list, whether they vape or not, in case I may have missed someone in the past.

 

[OldBatty]

CASAA E-Cigarette Survey

Government fails when we deprive them of the revenue they seek. Make them certain. Our consumer power trumps their tax and control addiction.

Missing options: Immediately quit vaping with out restarting smoking. Gradually cut down while using up existing stocks then quit. Either of which I would do before resorting to the black market. However it was the only choice to three different questions that could possibly ever apply to me.

 

[Rossum]

Missing options: Immediately quit vaping with out restarting smoking. Gradually cut down while using up existing stocks then quit. Either of which I would do before resorting to the black market. However it was the only choice to three different questions that could possibly ever apply to me.

The term "Black Market" has such negative connotations. I think it makes a lot of people imagine buying their e-liquid from some unsavory character in a dark alley, which they cannot envision themselves doing. But most "Black Market" transactions don't work that way; they occur between people who know each other already, who figured out they have a common interest in something that goobermint doesn't approve of (or simply over-taxes). Thus I prefer to call it the "Informal Sector of the Economy".

 

[JustJulie]

The term "Black Market" has such negative connotations. I think it makes a lot of people imagine buying their e-liquid from some unsavory character in a dark alley, which they cannot envision themselves doing. But most "Black Market" transactions don't work that way; they occur between people who know each other already, who figured out they have a common interest in something that goobermint doesn't approve of (or simply over-taxes). Thus I prefer to call it the "Informal Sector of the Economy".

I understand your point, but I still think that whatever you want to call it, we'll have fewer protections, higher prices, and greater uncertainty. Plus, while current vapers would be willing to go black market (or, "informal sector of the economy," if you prefer ), I think it would dramatically undermine our efforts to make this available to those who might choose vaping down the road.

Whatever you want to call it, I think it's both ridiculous and horrifying that we're having to even consider this possibility.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I understand your point, but I still think that whatever you want to call it, we'll have fewer protections, higher prices, and greater uncertainty. Plus, while current vapers would be willing to go black market (or, "informal sector of the economy," if you prefer ), I think it would dramatically undermine our efforts to make this available to those who might choose vaping down the road.

Whatever you want to call it, I think it's both ridiculous and horrifying that we're having to even consider this possibility.

I agree JJ, but "deeming" will accomplish the very same things you describe. Not my opinion but the conclusion arrived at by vendors, the many and qualified advocates for the community and most of us as well. What we're discussing is…what will we do about it?

Yes it is ridiculous, that we've been put in this position.

Good luck.

 

[Rossum]

Whatever you want to call it, I think it's both ridiculous and horrifying that we're having to even consider this possibility.

Agreed -- just as ridiculous as what they did to people who wanted a glass of beer or wine with dinner 95 years ago. Of course that fiasco was repealed when they realized it was unenforceable and created far more problems than it solved...

 

[SeniorBoy]

FYI: Dr. Siegel has a very interesting post which details his meeting with OIRA/OMB and he references the leaked documents by TVECA which we are discussing in this thread. Inside the post is a link to his detailed presentation. Fair use extraction:

"In particular, I believe that the deeming regulations are in violation of the following sections of Executive Order 12866:

• 1(b)(5)
• 1(b)(6)
• 1(b)(8)
• 1(b)(11)
• 1(b)(12)

In my public comment, I explain each of these violations in detail, based on my scientific analysis of the deeming regulations."

 

[Kent C]

we'll have fewer protections, higher prices, and greater uncertainty. Plus, while current vapers would be willing to go black market (or, "informal sector of the economy," if you prefer ), I think it would dramatically undermine our efforts to make this available to those who might choose vaping down the road.

I prefer to call it the 'free market' ...(two or more individuals making a free exchange of goods/values without any 3rd party intervention). And it would perform much like today's market. Bad products will be weeded out. There will be higher prices - that's the cost of an underground market - and the prices will be proportional to the amount of police state to try to stop it. We have good examples of this... As far as 'greater uncertainty' - it's hard to imagine something greater than the current uncertainty.

However, you point out the biggest downside - those who may choose to vape down the road. It will be the hardest for them - to a point that they may just continue smoking.

 

[DC2]

FYI: Dr. Siegel has a very interesting post which details his meeting with OIRA/OMB and he references the leaked documents by TVECA which we are discussing in this thread.

I often wonder how Dr. Siegel keeps his job given his stance on these issues.
I'd love for him to make a blog post some day about that topic.

 

[nicnik]

FYI: Dr. Siegel has a very interesting post which details his meeting with OIRA/OMB and he references the leaked documents by TVECA which we are discussing in this thread. Inside the post is a link to his detailed presentation. Fair use extraction:

"In particular, I believe that the deeming regulations are in violation of the following sections of Executive Order 12866:

• 1(b)(5)
• 1(b)(6)
• 1(b)(8)
• 1(b)(11)
• 1(b)(12)

In my public comment, I explain each of these violations in detail, based on my scientific analysis of the deeming regulations."

I looked for info about Executive Order 12866, saw that it was signed by Bill Cinton in 1993, and I found this:

Summary of Executive Order 12866 - Regulatory Planning and Review | Laws & Regulations | US EPA

Executive Order 13563 - Improving Regulation and Regulatory Review

E.O. 13563 – Improving Regulation and Regulatory Review – was issued by President Barack H. Obama in 2011 (76 FR 3821; January 21, 2011). It reaffirms and amplifies the principles embodied in E.O. 12866 by encouraging agencies to coordinate their regulatory activities, and to consider regulatory approaches that reduce the burden of regulation while maintaining flexibility and freedom of choice for the public. It directs agencies to, where feasible and appropriate, seek the views of those likely to be affected by a proposed rulemaking before a notice of proposed rulemaking is issued. E.O 13563 requires agencies to quantify anticipated benefits and costs of proposed rulemakings as accurately as possible using the best available techniques, and to ensure that any scientific and technological information or processes used to support their regulatory actions are objective.

To the extent feasible and permitted by law, E.O. 13563 also directs agencies to provide timely online access to the rulemaking docket for proposed and final rules, along with any relevant scientific and technical findings, on regulations.gov, and to afford the public the opportunity to comment on proposed regulations through the Internet. With regard to existing regulations, E.O. 13563 instructs agencies to periodically review their significant regulations with the goal of making their regulatory programs more effective or less burdensome.

It all comes down to President Obama in the end. He has the power to stop this idiocy. He doesn't have the greatest record of standing firm on intended action on other issues, but I sure hope he doesn't just ignore his own executive order on this one.

I really appreciate Dr. Siegel's work on his presentation to OIRA/OMB.

 

[haleysdadda]

After reading Dr. Siegel's article and the Executive order posted by @nicnik I still have hope and a little faith that our system will work. I also think this is too hot of an issue for an election year.

 

[nicnik]

After reading Dr. Siegel's article and the Executive order posted by @nicnik I still have hope and a little faith that our system will work. I also think this is too hot of an issue for an election year.

It's clear where the buck stops. Lots of damage has already been done, scaring away smokers, holding back investors. Without all the corruption and lies about vaping, more people would be vaping today, and there would be an even boomier industry. But it's nothing compared to the damage looming on the horizon.

It certainly is a hot issue, and it SHOULD be part of the election campaign discussion. Most politicians have been silent about vaping, especially on the federal level. No need to let them take the easy course.

 

[zoiDman]

The Next Republican Debate will be...

Dec. 15, 2015: The December Republican debate will be held in Las Vegas and hosted by CNN and Salem Media Group.

Here is where the Public can write to CNN to have a Question asked.

Send us your questions for the GOP candidates - CNNPolitics.com

 

[tiburonfirst]

The Next Republican Debate will be...

Dec. 15, 2015: The December Republican debate will be held in Las Vegas and hosted by CNN and Salem Media Group.

Here is where the Public can write to CNN to have a Question asked.

Send us your questions for the GOP candidates - CNNPolitics.com

but will there be new candidates?

 

[zoiDman]

but will there be new candidates?

My Magic 8-Ball says... "The Chances are Unlikely."