I just Tweeted, "Mr @Biebert are there plans to release @ABillionLives on Hulu, HBO, Netflix, Showtime and YouTube? Really need to build grassroots campaign."
Lets see if we can get the ball rolling.
FDA FDA's leaked guidance for PMTAs confirm deeming reg would ban >99.9% of nicotine vapor products
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I just Tweeted, "Mr @Biebert are there plans to release @ABillionLives on Hulu, HBO, Netflix, Showtime and YouTube? Really need to build grassroots campaign."
Lets see if we can get the ball rolling.
The uncommitted vaper is the mission. They need to be helped to understand that the price of admission is their commitment to conserve their right of choice, commerce and free association. And that by so doing they do so for all of us who've helped them. We would like to be able to continue this fine ethic of communal reciprocity so truly remarkable about vaping culture. We really are a band of brothers and sisters in this ideological contest.
Vendors need to pass this message too and do everything they can to move out of the line of fire to preserve their business.
While we really should fully support the legislative activism track our energies must be devoted to a much broader assault. At the end of the day even if successful in maintaining accommodation for existing products government absorbs and retains its authority to asphyxiate the marketplace at will. We can overwhelm them with numbers. It's not just us or the uncommitted but one or two degrees removed amongst a public imbued with the powerful message we can disseminate. We've survived rejecting tobacco combustion, want to and will.
It may boil down to us right now and how much we are willing to do to preserve our own right to choose to be free from personal or instituted dependence.
The message must be sent — we will not submit. We will make our own choices.
Good luck and a great Thanksgiving weekend.
Vendors need to pass this message too and do everything they can to move out of the line of fire to preserve their business.
While we really should fully support the legislative activism track our energies must be devoted to a much broader assault. At the end of the day even if successful in maintaining accommodation for existing products government absorbs and retains its authority to asphyxiate the marketplace at will. We can overwhelm them with numbers. It's not just us or the uncommitted but one or two degrees removed amongst a public imbued with the powerful message we can disseminate. We've survived rejecting tobacco combustion, want to and will.
It may boil down to us right now and how much we are willing to do to preserve our own right to choose to be free from personal or instituted dependence.
The message must be sent — we will not submit. We will make our own choices.
Good luck and a great Thanksgiving weekend.
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I agree, a broader catagory makes sense.
Part of the problem speaking with one voice is vapers don't have the same priorities. I don't buy pre mix, I don't rely on vape shops, I'm not interested in a vape culture per se. A lot of the meetings with OMB are to protect those things. What I would talk about is the potential for smokers, especially low income smokers, to eliminate the cost of smoking for the benefit of their families, not just their health. They would do DIY, rebuild, and buy devices from China. If everybody did that the typical vaper would spend about $100 a year. $100 billion of tobacco revenue would shrink to $4 billion of vaping expense and there would be few vape shops and a small pre mix market. My vision is radically different from the vape culture model. I'm not opposed to pre mix or shops or a vape culture but I'm not going to use up my trivial amouont of influence defending them.
Listing ingrediants on liquids sold for vaping is consistant with labeling on every other product we ingest. It's easy to support and I'm one of the supporters. After that, baring a proven health issue, leave me the hell alone.
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No Problem Tommy.
Sometimes it is Good to talk with someone who has Done something Similar as to what you want to do. And to Hear what Worked, and what Didn't Work, in getting people Organized.
And of Things to Say when Contacting Mayors, City Council Members, etc.
If as you suggest we all took that minimalist approach to vaping it might very well stem government's prospects for revenue and control. However, as you point out vapers don't have the same priorities.
More to the issue is the fact that the FDA convincingly demonstrates that they intend to control all production. This makes even the likelihood of a minimalist continuity of the objects of our needs questionable.
Personally, I cannot place trust in a government agency that would permit a cornucopia of hazardous chemicals in smoke then justify their priority over my (vape) choices due to my lack of judgment. Give them this and what realistic expectation exists that they'll not behave similarly even regarding our minimalist choices.
There are two issues here. One the physical control of business, production, the product. The second, the idea of their right to assume choice and control over us regarding the preceding. Of the two, the latter is far more dangerous. And the one we must oppose with all our voices.
Good luck all.
what if we all had our support from family and spouses etc. maybe join in a little. Have them participate in some surveys and join CASA.
Absolutely we should Encouraging Non-Vaping Friends and Family Members to Help Us. Here is Something I posted on Wednesday...
and this from Today...
Could be.
I kinda like to do what I can Now so that a Black Market isn't the Only Option. Or even an Attractive Option.
Agree - my comment was a 'just saying' :- ) Local will be the most likely 'safest' place to buy in the event of a total ban.
I think in Many Ways, the Black Market provides a False Sense of Security to some. And the Illusion that there will Always be something for the Average Vaper to Fall Back To.
I don't think Anyone here disputes the Fact that there will be a Black Market for e-Liquids in an FDA Regulated Market. There is a Black Market for Everything.
It's just more of a Percentage thing. In that, such a Small Percentage of Vaper's would be able to Even Access a Black Market. And of those, I Wonder how many would feel Warm and Fuzzy buying something to put in their Lungs that Doesn't have some sort of "Crowd Review".
I mean, we can't really have Review Threads on the ECF about the guy selling Nicotine Base out of his Van behind the Liquor Store, Right?
I don't think Anyone here disputes the Fact that there will be a Black Market for e-Liquids in an FDA Regulated Market. There is a Black Market for Everything.
It's just more of a Percentage thing. In that, such a Small Percentage of Vaper's would be able to Even Access a Black Market. And of those, I Wonder how many would feel Warm and Fuzzy buying something to put in their Lungs that Doesn't have some sort of "Crowd Review".
I mean, we can't really have Review Threads on the ECF about the guy selling Nicotine Base out of his Van behind the Liquor Store, Right?
Not looking for a 'sense of security' or 'warm and fuzzy'. For those that are, yeah, they won't find it. Fact is that the black market operates and have operated rather well in many places on many products.
That was my point about it being "local".
Didn't say You or Anyone here was.
And like I said before, I'm not Disputing that the Black Market Exists or has Existed for a Very Long Time. Just commenting on the Percentage of people who have Access to it. And of those, how many would want to Use it.
If the draconian crackdown is so likely the market place is not reflecting it. Nic is cheap. Eliquid vendors are investing. (The chinese hardware companies have a global market. The same goes for Evolv. Americans may be wealthy by global standards but we only have about 3% of the world's smokers.) If the goal is preserving tax revenues it's hard to see how they will get there without either banning vaping or giving us time to stockpile. I wonder how much nic could be supplied to American vapers in a few months or a few years grace period. If the OMB approves harsh FDA rules without an immediate crackdown I would expect panic buying and short supply. But it still won't be over. There will be lots of pressure on congress to fix it, may be years of delay in the courts. We are trying to hang on to our money and a bunch of evil b...tards are trying to take it. That standoff could last a long long time.If as you suggest we all took that minimalist approach to vaping it might very well stem government's prospects for revenue and control. However, as you point out vapers don't have the same priorities.
More to the issue is the fact that the FDA convincingly demonstrates that they intend to control all production. This makes even the likelihood of a minimalist continuity of the objects of our needs questionable.
May be the FDA intentionally wrote a deeming rule that is so overbearing, so intolerable, that they hope the OMB will be forced to kick it back to them or the congress will be forced to amend the law. From what little I know of the proposed rules it almost seems that way. In the mean time I've decided a degree of self sufficency is going to be part of my participation regardless of what governments do.
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Ok.. To whom were you referring? I can't think of anyone who knows anything about the black market would be so characterized.
In all honesty I have never had any luck plugging in to any black market for any reason. Some of us just are not good at that. Knowing this I started my stockpiling 2.5 years ago when I first heard about all this. Nic wise I think I am set. It is hardware mechs and toppers that have me worried because I am not particularly handy with tools either. So I do what I can stock up on the best quality I devices and toppers I can afford and pray it is good enough. I will manage.
The ones I worry about are the ones that have not yet made the switch and those that are just starting the stockpile now. Things are going to be very difficult for them.
If what I understand what things were like in the last court battle when the government tried to shut down vaping is true. A stampede to stock and shortages are the least we can expect. Then even if we win long run in court there will be a dry spell of years where the only options will be black market. That is not a good environment for people to switch. How many lives will be lost is a very valid question.
The ones I worry about are the ones that have not yet made the switch and those that are just starting the stockpile now. Things are going to be very difficult for them.
If what I understand what things were like in the last court battle when the government tried to shut down vaping is true. A stampede to stock and shortages are the least we can expect. Then even if we win long run in court there will be a dry spell of years where the only options will be black market. That is not a good environment for people to switch. How many lives will be lost is a very valid question.
Fact is the market's already in place. We've been sellin', swappin' and cookin' for each other from the jump. It's only a matter of scale and necessity. I'm sure the alphabet soup knows. We merely have to reassure them of the certainty to give them pause. Speak truth to power. No it won't be revenuers at the flea market and every back alley. Too many, and too well prepared to seize the opportunity. The FDA could help make that happen everywhere.
I live in S FL and this is an entrepreneurial haven.
No, I don't believe gov wants to abolish the B&M. I think they'll give up enough and to those whose conformity is required with their as yet undisclosed paradigm. The bandwagon effect will help ensure market retention and our conformance. They'll slice the pie right where they need to and we'll all be tested on our convictions. I'm sure the offings will be sweet two years down the pike. But do we risk getting trapped again? In this regulatory context?
So for me it's not about the mod or juice. It's about the right for all of us to make the informed reasoned choice. Not the model that they've undertaken as @SeniorBoy points out. A government prescribed and sanctioned imperative from the FDA would not be one of them. Not for me.
Z I trust the juice from a vaper I know and vape with more than I ever would the FDA. At the end of the day I have to put it in my body. I won't trust who can't and won't trust me.
Good luck all.
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