FDA FDA's leaked guidance for PMTAs confirm deeming reg would ban >99.9% of nicotine vapor products

[zoiDman]

I think there are probably a good many never-smokers who do use nicotine, for the benefits that nicotine provides but that they were unwilling to smoke, to get -- but they may claim to use 0mg on this forum, due to all the ignorant flaming they receive if they mention that they're a never-smoker who vapes nicotine.

Andria

I'm not Disputing that there Aren't some Never-Smokers who use 0mg. Sure, I'm sure there are. Just like I'm sure some Never-Smokers say they Only use 0mg to avoid Flaming or being Outcast.

I'd just like to see some Numbers that support what someone like Mike is saying.

What percentage of Vapers (Adult and Non-Adult) are Never-Smokers?
And of those Never-Smoker Vapers, how many Only use 0mg?

 

[AndriaD]

Better than microdosin' hallucinagens mebe. Just sayin'. G'luck.

I've seen quite a few posts from new members who say that they never smoked but they're vaping nicotine -- and it never fails that they receive so much misinformation about 1) turning into a "nicotine slave," 2) the "dangers" of nicotine, and I've even seen some outright flaming of those people. The evidence we have so far is that if someone has NEVER smoked, they won't become addicted to nicotine. We also know NOW that nicotine is NOT dangerous, at the levels normally encountered in either vaping OR smoking.

But the level of ignorance and sometimes outright hostility those never-smokers turned nicotine-vapers receive makes it easy to see why they'd either claim to vape 0mg... or just go somewhere else.

Andria

 

[MacTechVpr]

I've seen quite a few posts from new members who say that they never smoked but they're vaping nicotine -- and it never fails that they receive so much misinformation about 1) turning into a "nicotine slave," 2) the "dangers" of nicotine, and I've ever seen some outright flaming of those people. The evidence we have so far is that if someone has NEVER smoked, they won't become addicted to nicotine. We also know NOW that nicotine is NOT dangerous, at the levels normally encountered in either vaping OR smoking.

But the level of ignorance and sometimes outright hostility those never-smokers turned nicotine-vapers receive makes it easy to see why they'd either claim to vape 0mg... or just go somewhere else.

Andria

Worked with a lot of folks hands-on who wanted to learn to rebuild. A small but significant number never were. An even smaller number who sampled nic. Even less who vaped nic consistently. Respect their adult choices and reasons for doing it and they varied. Nic and smoke hysteria needs to be over. G'luck.

 

[AndriaD]

Worked with a lot of folks hands-on who wanted to learn to rebuild. A small but significant number never were. An even smaller number who sampled nic. Even less who vaped nic consistently. Respect their adult choices and reasons for doing it and they varied. Nic and smoke hysteria needs to be over. G'luck.

I agree completely. I've never been one of those so hysterical about nicotine that I thought I had to get down to 0mg ASAP... however, nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, and I suffer terribly from cold hands and feet in the winter... so I figured that I ought to try decreasing my nicotine by 50%, from 10mg to 5mg, to see if that might help -- because when I first started vaping, I was using 6mg, and I did notice a difference right away, but last winter, I was vaping 10mg, and I still suffered dreadfully with 'popsicle paws.'

But I have exactly zero interest in getting to 0mg, because of 2 different types of dementia in my gene-pool. If nicotine can protect me from losing my marbles as I age, I will call it a wonder drug, and vape it till I die. If people want to get to 0mg for some good reason, more power to 'em -- but if they're doing it because they've been brainwashed into thinking nicotine is the next thing to nuclear waste... they really need to get educated!

Andria

 

[pennysmalls]

My son was a never smoker and uses 6mg. He's tried 0mg but likes the "zing" from the nic. He can't handle the higher nic levels. However he has lots of friends who do use 0mg but also some who use up to 24mg if you can believe it. The majority of these friends are never smokers with a few former smokers in the mix with an average age of probably 19 or so. Never smokers aren't fitting into any of our boxes, perhaps we shouldn't try to place them there.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I agree completely. I've never been one of those so hysterical about nicotine that I thought I had to get down to 0mg ASAP... however, nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, and I suffer terribly from cold hands and feet in the winter... so I figured that I ought to try decreasing my nicotine by 50%, from 10mg to 5mg, to see if that might help -- because when I first started vaping, I was using 6mg, and I did notice a difference right away, but last winter, I was vaping 10mg, and I still suffered dreadfully with 'popsicle paws.'

But I have exactly zero interest in getting to 0mg, because of 2 different types of dementia in my gene-pool. If nicotine can protect me from losing my marbles as I age, I will call it a wonder drug, and vape it till I die. If people want to get to 0mg for some good reason, more power to 'em -- but if they're doing it because they've been brainwashed into thinking nicotine is the next thing to nuclear waste... they really need to get educated!

Andria

What a concept here. Your assumption is right on if you suffer from Raynaud's or the like. I can attest personally you are likely see an improvement. For some it will not be enough depending on circumstances and progression. In my rather advanced situation it was significant. However, I did have to break past what I'd perceived from the literature was the dependency threshold of 6mg. It took me a bit to get there comfortably but did it rather fast. In fact, vaped no-nic early on in my rebuilding study. Did have a bounce dropping so fast, like many others, a very short time after quitting which led me to some important revelations about our habitualization.

So no bogeyman here and dropping down in the reasonable progression you suggest make it easy. That's not why I enjoy vaping or appreciate nicotine. I'm not at all concerned about going without except it has proven beneficial in my unique case, as it may be to many others, and validated by my own medical support team.

As usual I recommend folks do their own due diligence with regard to their respective situation and/or issues.

Good luck!

 

[pennysmalls]

I'm someone with an undiagnosed connective tissue condition. I've had one rheum doc state that she suspects RA. I have my suspicions as to what it is but am waiting for it to show itself through either blood work or a full blown flair. In any case, I've done my research and believe beyond a doubt that nicotine and it's anti inflammatory properties is playing a part in this. I'm actually terrified of quitting nicotine because of what I believe could happen if I did. I'm more than happy to remain undiagnosed in a stable mild to moderate level of pain versus the unknown.

 

[roxynoodle]

I have Raynauds and its pretty severe at this point. Are you saying not using nic would help me? I don't believe smoking caused it as I've had it since I was a small child. My sister has, too, and she's never smoked.

 

[AndriaD]

I have Raynauds and its pretty severe at this point. Are you saying not using nic would help me? I don't believe smoking caused it as I've had it since I was a small child. My sister has, too, and she's never smoked.

I've heard that removing nicotine can help a great deal, since nicotine is a vasoconstrictor.

I don't think I have that condition, at least it's never been diagnosed, and I seem to lack most of the symptoms of it except just having cold hands and feet in the winter. But my whole body falls into the "long and slender" paradigm, including my blood vessels -- trying to find a vein for taking a blood is somewhat like an uncomfortable scavenger hunt; this, I'm pretty sure, is why I suffer the popsicle paws so terribly when the weather is cold -- if I'm cold, my blood vessels *naturally* constrict away from the skin, and with such slender blood vessels, that's a very uncomfortable situation for me. So, hopefully going to such a low level of nic will help; as I said, when I first started, in Feb 2014, with 6mg, I noticed an immediate improvement, but at 10mg, I still had cold hands and feet.

Andria

 

[roxynoodle]

I'm using 6mg. You would know if you had it. In mild cases you begin turning purple. People point it out. I'm at the point though where I go dead fish white. Its very painful. When I get in the shower my feet burn like hell from the warm water.

It also affects my ears, chin and nose. I have to cover them when I sleep.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm using 6mg. You would know if you had it. In mild cases you begin turning purple. People point it out. I'm at the point though where I go dead fish white. Its very painful. When I get in the shower my feet burn like hell from the warm water.

It also affects my ears, chin and nose. I have to cover them when I sleep.

Yeah, I don't get any of that -- just cold hands and feet, once the weather turns cold. My husband always says he could tell when the seasons changed even if he never went outdoors, just from the temperature of my hand and feet. I always knew it was from smoking, but it was my fond hope that it was more from the CO than the nicotine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've eliminated CO, as well as 80% of my caffeine intake, so the last thing to try is drastically reducing nicotine.

If that doesn't help, then I'll just have to deal with it as I've always done -- periodically using the blowdryer on hands and feet -- because I don't really want to go lower than 5mg. If it does help, then I'll just stay at 5mg even after it warms up again, so that my stashed nicotine lasts longer.

Andria

 

[roxynoodle]

Yeah, I don't get any of that -- just cold hands and feet, once the weather turns cold. My husband always says he could tell when the seasons changed even if he never went outdoors, just from the temperature of my hand and feet. I always knew it was from smoking, but it was my fond hope that it was more from the CO than the nicotine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've eliminated CO, as well as 80% of my caffeine intake, so the last thing to try is drastically reducing nicotine.

If that doesn't help, then I'll just have to deal with it as I've always done -- periodically using the blowdryer on hands and feet -- because I don't really want to go lower than 5mg. If it does help, then I'll just stay at 5mg even after it warms up again, so that my stashed nicotine lasts longer.

Andria

Warmish, not hot, water works the quickest for me to warm them back up.

Change your socks often as well. You don't think your ice cold feet are sweating, but they are. Even the slightest dampness makes them worse.

 

[AndriaD]

Warmish, not hot, water works the quickest for me to warm them back up.

Change your socks often as well. You don't think your ice cold feet are sweating, but they are. Even the slightest dampness makes them worse.

Oh I know; my excessive foot sweating is one of the biggest reasons for my cold feet -- hence using the blowdryer, to completely dry them as well as warming up my feet - I don't own enough socks to change them 4 times a day!

Andria

 

[roxynoodle]

Oh I know; my excessive foot sweating is one of the biggest reasons for my cold feet -- hence using the blowdryer, to completely dry them as well as warming up my feet - I don't own enough socks to change them 4 times a day!

Andria

I think I have 50+ pairs of socks, lol! I buy 12 packs.

 

[roxynoodle]

My parents live in Florida now. They came up here in the winter because I had surgery. Didn't bring any socks. My mom asked if I had any socks she could wear. I said I have 3 drawers full

 

[Oregon Linda]

Yeah, I don't get any of that -- just cold hands and feet, once the weather turns cold. My husband always says he could tell when the seasons changed even if he never went outdoors, just from the temperature of my hand and feet. I always knew it was from smoking, but it was my fond hope that it was more from the CO than the nicotine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've eliminated CO, as well as 80% of my caffeine intake, so the last thing to try is drastically reducing nicotine.

If that doesn't help, then I'll just have to deal with it as I've always done -- periodically using the blowdryer on hands and feet -- because I don't really want to go lower than 5mg. If it does help, then I'll just stay at 5mg even after it warms up again, so that my stashed nicotine lasts longer.

Andria

Andria, another reason for cold hands and feet is a low thyroid. My hands and feet were freezing cold for years. Eventually, I was cold all over, no matter what the outside temperature. Once I was outside painting the deck in the summer with a heavy sweatshirt on to keep warm. My next door neighbor commented that her thermometer was showing 98 degrees outside. But I was cold.

I'm not saying you have that problem - only a blood test would confirm. But my doctor said it is very common for women over 40. It's very easy to treat, but pretty often goes undiagnosed.

 

[AndriaD]

Andria, another reason for cold hands and feet is a low thyroid. My hands and feet were freezing cold for years. Eventually, I was cold all over, no matter what the outside temperature. Once I was outside painting the deck in the summer with a heavy sweatshirt on to keep warm. My next door neighbor commented that her thermometer was showing 98 degrees outside. But I was cold.

I'm not saying you have that problem - only a blood test would confirm. But my doctor said it is very common for women over 40. It's very easy to treat, but pretty often goes undiagnosed.

I recently had bloodwork done, because of my sinus infection; everything normal including my thyroid, though I was a bit dismayed to see that, although my glucose was perfectly normal, some of my other values indicated an incipient problem with that "metabolic disorder" that leads to diabetes -- it gallops thru my family, so it behooves me, seeing that tendency, to pay even closer attention to my diet.

My doctor seemed quite surprised to see that, at age 54, despite 39 yrs of smoking, I am apparently in nearly *perfect* health.

Andria

 

[DC2]

IF the deeming is altered to only include closed-systems, then and only then could serious doubts be raised.

Any regulations geared toward the following will, by definition, preclude open systems...

Planning For The FDA’s 'Deeming Rule' For E-Cigarettes - Law360

requiring e-cigarettes to be manufactured in a way that assures product consistency, safety and quality

 

[Kent C]

Any regulations geared toward the following will, by definition, preclude open systems...

Planning For The FDA’s 'Deeming Rule' For E-Cigarettes - Law360

Well, anyone's (or any group's) idea of how they think the deeming should be altered could mean a lot of things. I don't see that- ie what you quoted (I couldn't access the whole piece) - as precluding open systems.

Again, it's only been 'comments' TO the FDA from others that have directly mentioned 'closed systems' but not the FDA itself. No reason to believe that will be the case (or bet, or predict or see the writings on the wall - which pretty much fits Stubby's tag of mental .........ing) :- )

I'm going by what is actually in the docs, what is written as far as what requirements for applications are in the docs. And none of that says anything that indicates to me that there is collusion between "BT" and the FDA. The FDA hate tobacco companies, and has done everything legally possible (and unconstitutional as well) to tax, hinder, prohibit, mandate - ie all things that regulation does.

BUT in their attempt to shut down vaping, the FDA may very well 'help' (without attempting to) the tobacco companies, just like any other regulation (always for "safety" or "the greater good") tends to "help" the larger companies over the smaller ones. One would think that certain politicians would actually see this result instead of railing against big corporations that they had much to do with making them so big. And then declare them 'too big to fail'

 

[DC2]

Check out this thread on reddit. I think RaltSig150 has got it right:

I'm willing to buy that.

What I have trouble with is the idea that nicotine alone is what gives people a buzz.
But we're all different, and I don't doubt that some/many people might get a buzz from nicotine alone.

I just know that I do not, and never did.

I agree, though I think it's primarily from nicotine -- when I was first trying vaping at diff tasting bars, I tried one or two flavors that they only had for tasting in 12mg... and when I got up off the stool, I nearly fell back down with the dizziness. I'm at 5.5mg now, and if I vaped some 12mg, I'd get dizzy, and then nauseous if I didn't stop right away.

I have vaped lots of nicotine at high levels and never got any buzz.
Even all the way up to the point where I get a headache and sick to my stomach.

When I first tried WTA, with the added alkaloids including the MAOIs, it did NOT make me feel any particular way at all -- except I didn't have cravings; the vape experience itself is no different at all.

But when I vape WTA liquid, I do get a slight light-headed feeling.
And it IS somewhat similar to the slight "buzz" I used to get from the first cigarette of the day.