FDA FDA's leaked guidance for PMTAs confirm deeming reg would ban >99.9% of nicotine vapor products

[MacTechVpr]

prejudice

So I wonder how long it will be before they retract amd apologize for their lies about vaping.

Andria

Andria...They've got a hat for every dress; and, a face for every argument. God bless 'em.

G'luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

...I am by no means saying what the FDA proposed is the right way to go - but self regulation in an industry like this isnt either - in my opinion. (and again I am out - sorry but I really dont like being the only one pro regulation, I feel some people took their anger out on me and I'm not thick skinned enough)

Actually agree with what you're saying in good measure @Shameless. However, I think the public is well served when we favor appropriate regulation. We would like to be able to entrust the FDA to be responsible. But they evidently do not trust us with our affairs. That should be truly frightening to every one of us who vapes; as well, to every American.

Please understand that for many of us there is anger, but not for you. Think most of us went every vaper to be safe and well informed enough to stay that way. This is one of the most active and together communities I've ever encountered. We're human though and imperfect. That doesn't justify the FDA's no acceptable risk everything must be controlled approach for our intended solutions. We want and need every vaper to understand we are all challenged by the threatening weight of federal authority. The passion you see is due to this. I can't think less of you for your opinion. Truly wish you realize we are all on the same side.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

THE MEDIA BUSINESS; ABC NEWS SETTLES SUITS ON TOBACCO

"In an extraordinary act of contrition, ABC News publicly apologized last night for asserting in a news program that two giant tobacco companies add extra nicotine to their cigarettes…."American smokers made a large-scale transition from full-flavor to light cigarettes almost 50 years ago; the public health impact remains a highly debated topic even today. One fact is not debatable: The marketing of light cigarettes was not entirely an industry-driven conspiracy. The health advantages of light cigarettes compared with full-flavor brands were documented and promoted by the American Cancer Society in 1976 and 1979."

You mean it wasn't just Volkswagen! <gasp>

Good luck all.

 

[Kent C]

You mean it wasn't just Volkswagen! <gasp>

Good luck all.

And..... According to a later-debunked 1993 report on Dateline NBC, this arrangement made the trucks prone to exploding in a side collision. The faked video was staged by an expert witness for hire against GM, Bruce Enz of The Institute for Safety Analysis. Enz used incendiary devices and a poorly fitted gas cap to create the impression of a dangerous vehicle.

So much for "Safety Analysis"! Same mind set all around. Lie, cheat, steal - blow things up - in order to prove their point, and attack business.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Somebody did a find job of posting an excellent editorial clip from this session on C-SPAN…

Ignorance
These are the people that are deciding the fait of vaping. They lack the knowledge to be able to understand the difference between the impacts of a traditional cigarette and a e-cigarette. #vapingsavedmylife

Ignorance | Video | C-SPAN.org

(If someone knows how to post media from the site here, please let me know.)

This seems to me an excellent tactic, to parse out the specific nonsense being spewed…with names exhibited in capital letters. Oh, but then, maybe there's not too much need for editing.



Know thy opponents in the Senate. Good luck!

 

[MacTechVpr]

And..... According to a later-debunked 1993 report on Dateline NBC, this arrangement made the trucks prone to exploding in a side collision. The faked video was staged by an expert witness for hire against GM, Bruce Enz of The Institute for Safety Analysis. Enz used incendiary devices and a poorly fitted gas cap to create the impression of a dangerous vehicle.

So much for "Safety Analysis"! Same mind set all around. Lie, cheat, steal - blow things up - in order to prove their point, and attack business.

I know, that was redic. LOL It takes all kinds I guess. Hehe.

Good luck.

 

[Kent C]

It's not Markey.... like the one posted on another thread...

 

[Kent C]

I know, that was redic. LOL It takes all kinds I guess. Hehe.

Good luck.

A "classic" ... and there are many more but that one shows the point decidedly.

 

[Shameless]

Actually agree with what you're saying in good measure @Shameless. However, I think the public is well served when we favor appropriate regulation. We would like to be able to entrust the FDA to be responsible. But they evidently do not trust us with our affairs. That should be truly frightening to every one of us who vapes; as well, to every American.

Please understand that for many of us there is anger, but not for you. Think most of us went every vaper to be safe and well informed enough to stay that way. This is one of the most active and together communities I've ever encountered. We're human though and imperfect. That doesn't justify the FDA's no acceptable risk everything must be controlled approach for our intended solutions. We want and need every vaper to understand we are all challenged by the threatening weight of federal authority. The passion you see is due to this. I can't think less of you for your opinion. Truly wish you realize we are all on the same side.

Good luck.

Thanks!

I do realize the anger was about the regulations - but since I was voicing concern and asking why we shouldn't have them - the anger was directed at me. If you look back, there was name calling and I was made to feel small.

I do understand that happens especially with online discussions - but I was the only person "pro" regulation - so it was directed at me pretty vehemently.

Again - that happens - I just chose to take myself out of the discussion.

I also do realize that the FDAs proposed regs are wrong - and too extreme - but I don't think regulation should be entirely dismissed, and I think there might be a way to lobby our legislators for logical guidelines - not "none".

Yes, some vapers are extremely educated, know where to buy juice, know what to look for that is harmful, etc. But there are a ton of "new" vapers that have no idea. They shouldn't be left to their own devices (hell half of the population doesnt even know their multiplication tables or to spell correctly, do we really think they will research "safe" juices?

 

[Kent C]

If you look back, there was name calling and I was made to feel small.

"I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations."

"Long live Anarchy!"

" ...would any company say we make this juice in a rat infested basement and use whatever we have on hand when we run out (including pee, and seman (like some young high boy wont really think thats funny), or even worse some kind of addicting drug)"

" But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more."

"I actually AM just thinking about it"

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yes, some vapers are extremely educated, know where to buy juice, know what to look for that is harmful, etc. But there are a ton of "new" vapers that have no idea. They shouldn't be left to their own devices (hell half of the population doesnt even know their multiplication tables or to spell correctly, do we really think they will research "safe" juices?

Again, you make much sense. And I share your view. In my efforts (unofficial) with vendors I'd often use the phrase (as a compliment to those to whom it applied) — You have to be a skier to sell skis. The vaping retail marketing space has expanded enormously and too substantial a number advance the trend, not awareness. Near me, three in a one block area. The good, the bad and the ugly. Not singling out any one area or type of business, just that your concern is prevalent and germane. Too many talk the talk and give great ambiance. That's about it. Then you have say one prominent notable example many here will identify that sponsored rebuilding sessions for years at trade shows. That's commitment, exemplary. Responsibility, it comes with the territory. Particularly in view of the kind of competition, opposition that we have.

So if your sayin' mebe we've had it comin' (or due), in some measure? Won't get much of an argument from me. There is little excuse for the absence of knowledge for the safeguarding of our activities, rights and business.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

It's not Markey.... like the one posted on another thread...

Our tax dollars at work. They bury themselves in their own dissemblance. That's whats shameful. And that such office-holders seem to really believe that only the dumbstruck are listening or perhaps that we all are. I am so looking forward to the release of ABillionLives.

G'luck.

The E-Cigarette business should be put out of business. — Sen. Edward Markey, D-Massachusets

 

[Shameless]

"I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations."

"Long live Anarchy!"

" ...would any company say we make this juice in a rat infested basement and use whatever we have on hand when we run out (including pee, and seman (like some young high boy wont really think thats funny), or even worse some kind of addicting drug)"

" But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more."

"I actually AM just thinking about it"

I am pretty sure you are trying to say something - but you are going to have to spell it out to me - because I dont get it.

 

[Kent C]

I am pretty sure you are trying to say something - but you are going to have to spell it out to me - because I dont get it.

Name calling, implied name calling....

 

[Shameless]

"I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations." - I wasnt implying anyone was being alarmist - I said it was easy to be alarmist - and it is

"Long live Anarchy!" I own it - I was kind of sick of the backlash

" ...would any company say we make this juice in a rat infested basement and use whatever we have on hand when we run out (including pee, and seman (like some young high boy wont really think thats funny), or even worse some kind of addicting drug)" - How in the world is saying that absolutely anything could be in ejuice name calling?

" But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more." Yea I suppose I can own this too - but it was in response to someone telling ME that I needed to think about it more

"I actually AM just thinking about it" Again how in the world is this name calling

OMG - read the posts - if you feel that I was the one that was name calling or implying name calling - more power to you - god I have no idea why I even bothered answering someones question in this thread again!! I wont again!

Have a good day!

 

[Kent C]

"I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations." - I wasnt implying anyone was being alarmist - I said it was easy to be alarmist - and it is

"Long live Anarchy!" I own it - I was kind of sick of the backlash

" ...would any company say we make this juice in a rat infested basement and use whatever we have on hand when we run out (including pee, and seman (like some young high boy wont really think thats funny), or even worse some kind of addicting drug)" - How in the world is saying that absolutely anything could be in ejuice name calling?

" But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more." Yea I suppose I can own this too - but it was in response to someone telling ME that I needed to think about it more

"I actually AM just thinking about it" Again how in the world is this name calling

OMG - read the posts - if you feel that I was the one that was name calling or implying name calling - more power to you - god I have no idea why I even bothered answering someones question in this thread again!! I wont again!

Have a good day!

"Name calling, implied name calling ...." the " ...." implying more - posturing, imagining corrupt businesses in the eliquid market doing things that some minds seem to be focused on.

I didn't see the name calling toward you - perhaps it was along the lines of your 'explanation" above - that likely no one is going to buy, as if you threw it out there with no context - just an idea that happened to be passing through your mind and a need to tell someone : I wasnt implying anyone was being alarmist - I said it was easy to be alarmist - and it is.

 

[DC2]

A thoughtful person with different views is welcome here.
Or at least I hope so.

A certain Steve who no longer resides here is not my definition of thoughtful.
More like, screw you guys, I'm leaving the United States.


So yeah, @Shameless I for one would like to ENCOURAGE you to post more here.
We sometimes need a sounding board.

 

[Jman8]

Thanks!

I do realize the anger was about the regulations - but since I was voicing concern and asking why we shouldn't have them - the anger was directed at me. If you look back, there was name calling and I was made to feel small.

I do understand that happens especially with online discussions - but I was the only person "pro" regulation - so it was directed at me pretty vehemently.

Again - that happens - I just chose to take myself out of the discussion.

I also do realize that the FDAs proposed regs are wrong - and too extreme - but I don't think regulation should be entirely dismissed, and I think there might be a way to lobby our legislators for logical guidelines - not "none".

Yes, some vapers are extremely educated, know where to buy juice, know what to look for that is harmful, etc. But there are a ton of "new" vapers that have no idea. They shouldn't be left to their own devices (hell half of the population doesnt even know their multiplication tables or to spell correctly, do we really think they will research "safe" juices?

Did I not address your concerns directly before?

I think many here are pro reasonable regulations. I think we differ (perhaps greatly) on what makes for reasonable regulations. A lot of times, in a lot of threads, people (fellow vapers) have to paint a picture of vaping right now being inherently dangerous. There are numerous examples of this. You've brought up some. Our actual opposition does it pretty much all the time. IMO, if you do it, and you're a fellow vaper, you ought to be called out on it, and your rhetoric ought to be squarely dealt with. Hopefully if you can dish it out, you can take it.

It is challenging to understand how you can see yourself as "pro" regulation (with pro in quotes) while also noting realization that FDA proposed regs are wrong / too extreme. If you said just the latter part, you'd find that a great majority agree with you. But if you come back and say, "I'm pro FDA regulations" then what is the reasonable expectation there?

With what the FDA proposed in April 2014, there is really no reason (at all) for them to touch flavors in the industry UNLESS they provide another comment period and essentially listen to various parties on what it would mean to go in that direction. Instead, the leaked info indicates that what they told us (explicitly) during proposed deeming was quite likely deception, as in false advertising. And it is inherently unreasonable to think they would do more without a comment period or due process.

I still wonder why any vaper/human thinks there will be "safe" juice post FDA deeming? Chantix is available right now for those who care to quit smoking and is it "safe?"

 

[Shameless]

I really hate responding after I say I am going to stop - but I just have to say this. Again, I find your posts to be rather rude considering this is just a forum to share ideas. Since you pointed out I didn't give context to what I said, I decided that you are right and I should do so.

I find it amazing that you "didn't see the name calling toward you - perhaps it was along the lines of your 'explanation" above - that likely no one is going to buy, as if you threw it out there with no context - just an idea that happened to be passing through your mind and a need to tell someone". Considering all you have to do is read your own posts!

You call me senseless, tell me to get a government job, etc.

These are some of your comments that name call (or imply name calling lol)

"Add that all up and you get someone who thinks that if the gov't gets involved then 'you know it will be safe' And nothing could be further from the truth."
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"@Shameless
The same thing could be said about every product you consume - regulated or unregulated. How do you know the regulators don't do the things that you say people in businesses do? Or taking bribes to look the other way? Your questions are senseless because there would be no way to prove to you any of the questions you ask. If you were to visit the sterile labs (that many of our vendors have done), who's to say that wasn't just a 'performance' and that as soon as you leave, they'd go back to their rat infested ways? There is no answer to any of your questions that couldn't be followed up by more insane questions to bring doubt into the answers. And if there were, more doubt could be brought on.

Basically, you have the mind set of the 'we know what's best for you' crowd. You ask the same questions and nothing would satisfy you until we have what would amount to a police state. Perhaps, if you haven't already, get a gov't job - maybe at the FDA."
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"The thing about these 'pro-regulation' types (even to some extent the 'reasonable regulation' types) is that they say follow the money - it's BT or BP anyway, so the regulations are the way they make money not about safety. IF it were about safety, then (according to them) BT and BP wouldn't have anything to do with it, because, again, according to them, BT and BP doesn't care about people or people's safety. That's called having your cake and eating it too."
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"People who think that with gov't, they can 'know' that certain products are safe, don't understand the nature that our gov't has become, and delude themselves in this 'absolute knowledge' - that as you have pointed out, has no basis in reality in some of the products that have been 'approved' by gov't."
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You cant seem to find any negative comments about me, yet you seem to be able to grab comments I made, most out of context, and say that I was name calling or implying name calling...
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"I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations." -
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Taken out of context to imply I was saying others were alarmist... but here is what I posted, and it had nothing to do with name calling or implication of name calling, it was simply a statement not directed towards anyone at all.

I think its easy to be alarmist about new government regulations. But shouldnt we already be alarmed that ANYTHING could be in the juices we vape?
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"Long live Anarchy!"
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Again not directed at anyone - or calling anyone names or implying a name! Here's what I actually said:

Ok Ok I give! Long live Anarchy!

I was actually being a little silly when I said that, but to your point... how do you know they are using FDA approved ingredients if there isnt some regulating body??
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" ...would any company say we make this juice in a rat infested basement and use whatever we have on hand when we run out (including pee, and seman (like some young high boy wont really think thats funny), or even worse some kind of addicting drug)"
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How can you have a discussion about FDA regulations without pointing out what could happen without them? Again not calling names or implying anything of the sort.
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" But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more."
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There was a comment before, not directed at me - but I was following the theme...
So they don't have to do that dreadful onerous thing called "thinking." Just try it.. in any given conversation, say the words "ok, now just think about it.." I guarantee you there will be a chorus of groans like you just asked them to dig a 20 ft trench with their teeth.

So taken in context this is what I said, again no name calling or implication of such...

I originally posed this as a question - why it this bad, wouldnt it be good to have someone make sure the ingredients are safe? And every one that commented came on real strong trying to make me feel small for asking. But all you have done is show me that you are the ones that need to think about it a little more. Ask yourself, wait "just think about it", how could this go wrong? When big pharma or big tobacco take over (which sooner or later we all know its a possibility) what will they do to ejuice? Do we really want a product that we ingest to NOT be reviewed? To have no regulations?
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"I actually AM just thinking about it"
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Again in the same post as above, and there is absolutely no name calling or implication. Here's the context...

But when you say "just think about it", I actually AM just thinking about it, and I actually was just asking why you felt it would shut down the industry and the responses I got didnt quell my questions, they actually made me wonder why in the world, with everything we have seen happen with other industries, you believe that nothing untoward will happen in this one without regulations?

Anyway - I hope everyone has a great day!!

 

[Kent C]

Almost everything you mentioned was addressed earlier. Showing how self-regulation works, how the FDA and other agencies screw up to the danger of individuals, How they shut down viable businesses, like they may very well do with the deeming.

But shouldnt we already be alarmed that ANYTHING could be in the juices we vape?

You can say this about 'ANYTHING' - it isn't an argument - it's a gross generality that really needs no reply. It skepticism taken to the extreme - very much in line with a lot of things - global warming, that then require a gov't solution. Hence:
"Your questions are senseless because there would be no way to prove to you any of the questions you ask."

The 'gov't job' seems like a good match.

How can you have a discussion about FDA regulations without pointing out what could happen without them?

Again, already discussed and frankly, the existence of today's vaping industry in a stellar example of how self-regulation works. People aren't dying, babies aren't being deformed like in the FDA approval of Thalidomide, or exposing all children by fire proofing pajamas with carcinogenic chemicals. You talk about what 'businesses' might put in stuff - do you know there's an FDA (or USDA) regulation on the amount of feces allowed?

11 Revolting Things Government Lets in Your Food

Have a great day, good luck, ...