Looks like Georgia is gonna be Indiana'd

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VNeil

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I fully understand the wording of the bill and how bills are written.

I cannot help it if you don't.

It's a terrible bill, and is obviously crafted to support big tobacco and shut down the little guy, but it's all about controlling the money.

It regulates almost every financial aspect of the industry.

It doesn't specifically regulate DIY, however it may eliminate a DIYers ability to legally buy nicotine without buying "in state" and/or paying ridiculous taxes.

It's okay if it's confusing, legalese always is.

Personally I think the politicians that support this should be investigated.
So you cannot cite any specific language. You are relying on the good faith of the current and all future prosecutors and judges to interpret the spirit of the law as you think it is crafted. Good luck to you. It's your rabbit hole and I'm really out of it.

I always use the civil forfeiture laws, which are truly a violation of the Constitutional guarantee of Due Process and Equal Protection, as an example. At the time we were told this was a necessary evil to convict and punish organized crime and dealers in certain unmentionables, that it was not directed at "ordinary citizens". A few years later we were seeing hapless John's having their cars seized under those acts merely for soliciting a prostitute. By that time no one talked about spirit of intent, they just read the law, as it stood, word for word, and interpreted plain English, and sold those cars at auction. You have far, far more faith in the gov't than I do. They may not start arresting DIYers the day the law goes into effect, but years later that is the kind of law that comes back to haunt the citizenry.
 

zoiDman

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So you cannot cite any specific language. You are relying on the good faith of the current and all future prosecutors and judges to interpret the spirit of the law as you think it is crafted. ...

This is Exactly what an Enforcement Agency, DA's Office or a Court System Does Not Want to do. Attempt to Enforce, Prosecute or Make Legal Rulings based on "The Intent" of a Law.
 
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VNeil

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Say What?

That's what this type of Legislation is. A Collection of Line Items that Make Up a Body of Laws.

I don't think you Understand what the Intent of the Wording the Author used is. If you Did, I think it would make More sense to You.
As written, the law makes it legal to be an eLiquid manufacturer, albeit with onerous requirements. It makes no mention whatsoever, of any exclusion for DIY or even a definition of DIY or "for personal use" as you have in the alcohol control laws. It only addresses DIY in the now infamous...

195 (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to mix, bottle, package, or sell e-liquid in this state
196 without having first obtained a manufacturing license from the Commissioner.

It is crystal clear that that makes DIY illegal. When they crafted the alcohol laws they addressed home DIY because they intended to allow it. This is not some sort of oversight.

And I've been expecting to see a state law like this for some time. DIY is absolutely incompatible with the idea that a liter of VG is taxed at Walmart at sales tax rates, if at all, but if you take that liter of VG and slap a label on it that says "eLiquid" then it's taxed at $500, or about 30x the retail value. And I don't think any of the currently announced taxing schemes exclude zero nic eLiquid. There is something fundamentally wrong with this picture, but it is a lot "less wrong" if DIY is illegal, even for personal use. It still does not quite make sense. But once the gov't goes down that rabbit hole of taxing basic consumer goods based on intent of use, it has to go all the way down that hole. And I think this law is an attempt to do just that. The popularity of DIY will explode as ridiculous taxes are levied on eLiquids. This law puts some sort of solution in the back pockets of the politicians, assuming they do not somehow act on it immediately.
 
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VNeil

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Lol
I can't help you guys.
Your all over the place and clearly don't understand what's written.

There's plenty wrong with the bill, but facts are facts, no matter how much you want to ignore them.
You have yet to cite a single fact to back up your assertions. LOL
 
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skoony

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602 (b) A person shall not knowingly receive or acquire any e-liquid from a person that does
603 not hold a valid license under this chapter.
Well at least we know you can't get it from your DIY buddy. It's interesting to note
there are no exclusions for DIY. If DIY is in fact allowed how can they stop you from
treating your friends? I know of no single case of someone making beer or wine at
home and not saying," Try this.".
regards
Mike
 

VNeil

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602 (b) A person shall not knowingly receive or acquire any e-liquid from a person that does
603 not hold a valid license under this chapter.
Well at least we know you can't get it from your DIY buddy. It's interesting to note
there are no exclusions for DIY. If DIY is in fact allowed how can they stop you from
treating your friends? I know of no single case of someone making beer or wine at
home and not saying," Try this.".
regards
Mike
Just out of curiosity, because I am not familiar with the details of the home brewing laws, is it strictly legal to give (without compensation) your friend a bottle of beer or wine you made to take home? As opposed to trying a sample at the home brewer's home.
 

VNeil

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Lol
I can't help you guys.
Your all over the place and clearly don't understand what's written.

There's plenty wrong with the bill, but facts are facts, no matter how much you want to ignore them.
I gotta tell you, you sound exactly like a dirty politician trying to sneak through a very bad bill. I'm not all over the place, I am focused on some very specific and very dangerous language in that bill. You claim facts without citing a single one. You claim that over and over without divulging anything to support your position. Can you say "dirty politician"?
 

Bad Ninja

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Just out of curiosity, because I am not familiar with the details of the home brewing laws, is it strictly legal to give (without compensation) your friend a bottle of beer or wine you made to take home? As opposed to trying a sample at the home brewer's home.

Alcohol is regulated by a totally different branch of government.

Yes I can freely give away alcoholic beverages (think open bar at a wedding) without a lisc.
I can make alcoholic beverages for personal use.
No one will arrest me for giving you some homemade alcoholic beverage.

However, if I sell or trade it withoutna lisc, I could be arrested.
 

Bad Ninja

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I gotta tell you, you sound exactly like a dirty politician trying to sneak through a very bad bill. I'm not all over the place, I am focused on some very specific and very dangerous language in that bill. You claim facts without citing a single one. You claim that over and over without divulging anything to support your position. Can you say "dirty politician"?

Excuse me?
Name calling?

I'm done here.
 

VNeil

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Alcohol is regulated by a totally different branch of government.

Yes I can freely give away alcoholic beverages (think open bar at a wedding) without a lisc.
I can make alcoholic beverages for personal use.
No one will arrest me for giving you some homemade alcoholic beverage.

However, if I sell or trade it withoutna lisc, I could be arrested.
I didn't ask if anyone would arrest me. I asked if it was strictly, by the book, legal. Please improve your reading comprehension.
 

VNeil

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Excuse me?
Name calling?

I'm done here.
Good. Because I'm tired of you claiming facts that you are unwilling to disclose. If you have facts then state them. As it stands you are an anonymous person, with undisclosed credentials (or lack of), claiming facts you are unwilling to disclose, resulting in some sort of "you just gotta trust me" argument. That won't fly here. Or anywhere that intelligent discourse is attempted.
 
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squee

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Since this is an almost identical bill as Indiana (and why I titled the post as such), it might be beneficial to listen to those who've already been fighting this in IN and what their lawyers had to say. This was posted last year by @Hoosier in the CASAA IN thread:

If you look at the laws governing beer production in Indiana you will see 3 different definitions. Commercial, craft, and personal use. The law as written applies to commercial production. Craft has their own exemptions and specific other regulations. DIY (personal use) has its own exemptions and specified limits. So, 3 different defined producers and 3 different regulations.

HB 1432 has one definition of juice production, commercial. Thus all juice production is considered commercial under the law because nothing else is defined and nothing is excluded. If it did not include DIY then DIY would be defined and limits set to differentiate DIY from another type of production.

Since DIY is NOT defined, NOR specifically exempted, it is the same thing as commercial production as far as the agency is concerned and the only definition a court could rule on.

Just because it isn't included, doesn't mean the law doesn't apply. Laws on murder do not include redheaded step children, but if one murders one it is still murder. And if a redheaded step child murders a non-redheaded stepchild, the redhead is still guilty of murder.

Does that make it make sense now?

(I keep seeing the confusion on DIY for this law and it seems to orbit the fact that DIY isn't specified, but commercial is, but that just means that any juice production is commercial juice production in the eyes of the law. Common sense doesn't apply to laws, nor hidebound ATC agents.
-----


Also, if I remember correctly, they had a number of meetings with congressional peeps and tried to get DIY carve-outs, to no avail.

For anyone curious as to what booze you can brew in your home, this page will give you all the states and their specific DIY carve-outs for homebrew --> http://www.ncsl.org/research/financ...me-manufacture-of-alcohol-state-statutes.aspx
 

skoony

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Just out of curiosity, because I am not familiar with the details of the home brewing laws, is it strictly legal to give (without compensation) your friend a bottle of beer or wine you made to take home? As opposed to trying a sample at the home brewer's home.
It varies from state to state. from what I garnered with a quick search served in the home
it's fine. there are exceptions.
I am a homebrewer, can I sell my homebrew/beer/wine/mead/cider/etc.? | The Kielich Law Firm – Bedford Attorney in Bedford, Texas
Yes I can freely give away alcoholic beverages (think open bar at a wedding) without a lisc.
I can make alcoholic beverages for personal use.
No one will arrest me for giving you some homemade alcoholic beverage.
In Minnesota at least if it's given out for use on your property your fine.
If in a public setting such as a hall someone would have to have proper licensing.
If at a licensed bar someone would have to foot the bill at bar prices using bar
stock. It's a tax thing.It may apply in all public establishments in some form.
You can't BYO. Then there are still set up bars that sell only beer and customers
can bring in hard liquor for the bar to set up. In this case I haven't a clue but,
I am sure it's covered some how.
Regards
Mike
 
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VNeil

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It varies from state to state. from what I garnered with a quick search served in the home
it's fine. there are exceptions.
I am a homebrewer, can I sell my homebrew/beer/wine/mead/cider/etc.? | The Kielich Law Firm – Bedford Attorney in Bedford, Texas

In Minnesota at least if it's given out for use on your property your fine.
If in a public setting such as a hall someone would have to have proper licensing.
If at a licensed bar someone would have to foot the bill at bar prices using bar
stock.
You can't BYO. Then there are still set up bars that sell only beer and customers
can bring in hard liquor for the bar to set up. In this case I haven't a clue but,
I am sure it's covered some how.
Regards
Mike
You did not answer my question but this excerpt did:

The general sense from alcoholic beverage commissions across the country is that they are not particularly concerned with people sharing homebrew among friends or giving away small amounts as gifts. That said, these acts are likely not legal and the lack of prosecution is not the same as declaring them legal.

(emphasis mine)

So the answer apparently is: it is probably technically illegal, at least at some unspecified quantity, and perhaps any quantity, but a wink and a nod and you are probably ok as long as you stay under the radar and don't get carried away. About what I expected.

Having a "wine tasting" or an "eLiquid Tasting" party is a totally different matter than giving someone a free bottle of wine, or beer or eLiquid to take home. At least in a technical sense. But giving someone a bottle crosses a threshold. OTOH, In some jurisdictions perhaps even a wine tasting party is crossing that threshold.

(my question was specifically directed at giving someone a bottle to take home because it is a form of "distribution" even if no compensation is involved)
 

Hoosier

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There are some lines that are exactly like what we had here. Some of different, but the intent is much the same.

I haven't read it all and don't know enough about the state laws there to know the full implications, but I said Indiana was the test case and we had rumors that the same law was being shopped to other states. Looks like Georgia is next in line. Someone is funding this push. I hope the Georgia advocacy has their people inside the statehouse and is getting that intel. Otherwise there will be no way to stop the sharpening of the process to drive everyone except the people pushing this out of business in one quick swoop. Screwing the common vapers in the process. Cig-alikes are purposely excluded to keep the tobacco lobby from jumping in against it. As long as that stays, tobacco will stay out of it.

Good luck with the fight Georgia!

We, the Hoosier Vapers, are suing the state of Indiana over the law here. It's expensive and long process. Certainly not something you want to be doing...
 

DaveP

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DIY may be our chief option if this bill passes. PG and VG are widely available as cosmetic chemicals. Lorann's flavorings is an option. Nothing was said abut buying nic, and pharma nic still seems to be open for purchase. It's the mixing process that might be questioned. As long as none is passed on to another, DIY should be fine.

Or did I miss something when I read the bill? I'm still irritated by the clause that speaks to importing juice from other states. Do we agree that it can be ordered for personal use, but can't be sold in GA or will it be illegal to order and receive for personal use?

It will be interesting to hear the discussion from the stat house floor as this bill is considered.
 
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