Looks like Georgia is gonna be Indiana'd

[zoiDman]

the sum of the parts is e-liquid, which is what they're legislating. Not the parts, i.e. nicotine base (you can't vape 100mg/mL base), flavorings aren't mentioned, PG, VG, etc.. Just the final product.

It's like saying you can have a glass of vodka or a glass of OJ but if you mix them together, you need a liquor license or bartenders license.

Speaking of which, I've noticed on the wording of a couple of these type bills, the way they say 'mix' without regard to content or context, it would also mean that if you bought a bottle of GA certified vanilla custard juice and a bottle of GA certified strawberry cream juice and want to 'mix' a tank with half of each, you'd need a manufacturer's license.

Not that I think that was intention; in fact I think the opposite is true - they don't really understand a lot about vaping.. just enough to be dangerous

This is what they are saying the term "e-Liquid" means in this Bill.


37 (6) 'E-liquid' means a substance that is intended to be vaporized and inhaled using a
38 vapor pen. The term 'e-liquid' shall not include substances contained in nonrefillable
39 sealed cartridges intended to be used in electronic cigarettes.

So it seems a little Vague as to whether or not a 6mg/ml Nicotine Base would be considered an "E-Liquid". Because at that mg/ml, this Nicotine Base would be Very Vapable by Most People.

 

[Lessifer]

This is what they are saying the term "e-Liquid" means in this Bill.


37 (6) 'E-liquid' means a substance that is intended to be vaporized and inhaled using a
38 vapor pen. The term 'e-liquid' shall not include substances contained in nonrefillable
39 sealed cartridges intended to be used in electronic cigarettes.

So it seems a little Vague as to whether or not a 6mg/ml Nicotine Base would be considered an "E-Liquid". Because at that mg/ml, this Nicotine Base would be Very Vapable by Most People.

I don't see the word nicotine at all in that definition...

 

[zoiDman]

I don't see the word nicotine at all in that definition...

I don't Either.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't Either.

It's either poorly written, leaving a giant "intended use" loophole. Or it's specifically written, to include whatever they want it to.

 

[zoiDman]

It's either poorly written, leaving a giant "intended use" loophole. Or it's specifically written, to include whatever they want it to.

Call me Cynical.

But when it comes to Poorly Written verses To Be Used to Apply to Anything that People Vape (including 0mg), I am Always going to Lean towards the Later.

Because that is what I would Do if I wanted to Restrict e-Liquid use while still Giving Closed System Cartridges a Free Ride.

 

[VNeil]

The way it's written, I don't think so - it's the sum of the parts in question, not the parts themselves. However, you could run into issues with some companies who don't want to chance it or who offer more than DIY ingredients - I know there were some people in Arkansas who weren't able to order mods or coils and such from vendors because they couldn't ship juice there, they just blocked all AR shipping addresses from ordering anything

If it is technically illegal to DIY, and if the only use for concentrated nicotine is to mix into a final product, something only a registered and licensed manufacturer can do, then I fail to see any logical argument suggesting they can't prevent the sale to those same consumers who cannot legally handle it anyway.

I think you are saying that as the law is written, consumers can buy components (including concentrated nic) from anyone, but final vapable product only from licensed manufacturers.

This is not a simple issue... you can buy "nicotine concentrate" anywhere from 24mg to 100mg from the same vendor. Now, 24mg is vapable, and is a legitimate final end user form in itself. So that would not be permissible as a "sum of the parts" final product. That would lead to a very peculiar situation where unflavored nic up to, say, 24mg, could not be purchased from anywhere, but higher concentrations could, even though only manufacturers can legally handle it. I kinda think it will be tough to buy 100mg nic

 

[VNeil]

It's either poorly written, leaving a giant "intended use" loophole. Or it's specifically written, to include whatever they want it to.

I have suggested repeatedly that it is a huge mistake to think our adversaries are somehow stupid or ignorant. That definition has every intent of incorporating anything that anyone might possibly put in a "vaper pen".

Under this law, it is illegal for an individual to go to Walmart, buy a bottle of VG, and rebottle it into smaller bottles for their own consumption in a vape device. It is similarly illegal under that law for anyone to give someone else some of that VG purchased over the counter at Walmart.

They are attempting, under some concept of intended use, to take a totally harmless consumer product, such as VG or PG, and food flavorings, and establish restrictions known only in the prescription drug area (or perhaps guns or explosive ordinance components or some other potentially very lethal product requiring specific licensing).

It is often said here that it's a good thing the FDA is "only" deeming vaping as a tobacco product, rather than a drug, but the state of Ga is essentially making eLiquid a prescription drug. Think about it- prohibitions to even share the product among friends (like a scrip drug), and requiring 24 hour 3rd party surveillance that probably even pharmacies don't have to comply with (do they?). Strict prohibitions against "consumer tampering" (i.e. DIY).

These restrictions are without precedent, and they are being applied to a product that is essentially harmless, and zero nic eLiquid is about as harmful as spring water. And an 8 year old child can walk into Walmart and buy everything s/he needs to make eLiquid. Because it is all food grade harmless stuff. The nic is very optional of course. Anyone that can write a law that turns over the counter VG into a controlled substance, simply based on intent, is pretty smart and deserves everyone's respect.

 

[Rossum]

Anyone that can write a law that turns over the counter VG into a controlled substance, simply based on intent, is pretty smart and deserves everyone's respect.

Wait, we should respect someone for writing arbitrary laws that have absolutely no moral/ethical justification? Personally, "contempt" is far more appropriate than respect.

 

[Lessifer]

Wait, we should respect someone for writing arbitrary laws that have absolutely no moral/ethical justification? Personally, "contempt" is far more appropriate than respect.

I find it impressive. Repulsive, but impressive.

 

[zoiDman]

Just Curious:

If I walk into Walmart in downtown Savannah and buy a Liter of VG, how would the Chatham County DA's Office know what my Intent of Use is for the VG?

 

[Rossum]

Just Curious:

If I walk into Walmart in downtown Savannah and buy a Liter of VG, how would the Chatham County DA's Office know what my Intent of Use is for the VG?

If you have PG and food flavors, you have "Constructive Intent". Google that along with "ATF".

 

[zoiDman]

If you have PG and food flavors, you have "Constructive Intent". ...

No I don't.

Because even the Most Junior ADA will know that He/She would be Laughed At if He/She tried to imply that Consequences of my Purchase would result in a Reckless Act.

 

[YoursTruli]

If you have PG and food flavors, you have "Constructive Intent". Google that along with "ATF".

why would the ATF care if you are buying supplies to make soap?

 

[VNeil]

Wait, we should respect someone for writing arbitrary laws that have absolutely no moral/ethical justification? Personally, "contempt" is far more appropriate than respect.

If they can get away with turning a harmless consumer product into a controlled substance you have to respect their legal skills. Morals and ethics has nothing to do with underestimating your enemy.

Throughout these threads the idea is floated that our enemies are stupid and/or ignorant. When they concoct "scientific studies" by misusing the gear people call them stupid. But they are not. They are creating a hazard where none exists and they are getting away with it. It is not moral or ethical but it is very effective and it is being conducted by extremely smart people and they are winning the war on every front.

Similarly, they concoct a law that makes it illegal to rebottle VG in your own home for your own use. And people suggest they are stupid or ignorant. They aren't. They know exactly what they are doing and they will win, partly because their adversaries do not respect their skills.

Ethics, morals, skills, abilities, intelligence and knowledge are all very different things.

Just my 2 cents. I don't underestimate our adversaries in any way. I see them as anything other than stupid or ignorant. I too view them with contempt. But I also respect them.

 

[VNeil]

Just Curious:

If I walk into Walmart in downtown Savannah and buy a Liter of VG, how would the Chatham County DA's Office know what my Intent of Use is for the VG?

If you are caught putting it into a personal vaporizer then you have made your intent quite clear.

ETA: buying the VG is perfectly legal. Vaping it is not. That is the letter of that law.

 

[Rossum]

why would the ATF care if you are buying supplies to make soap?

They would not. I'm using them as a example where government has prosecuted people under circumstances similar to the ones described here, where it's entirely legal to buy and own various components that could be used to make some particular thing, as long as you don't buy and own ALL the components required to make it. The moment you do that, you can be prosecuted, even if you haven't actually made the thing in question.

 

[DaveP]

Oh I don't think there is Any Doubt that Restriction of Nicotine is the Head of the Snake. And my Comments regarding DIY were more Oriented towards those who Have Nicotine Base.

What I think Needs Clarification here is Can this Proposed Georgia Law Restrict a Person Living in Gerogia from purchasing Nicotine Base, for personal use, from an Out-of-State (OOS) Vendor?

The stated reason for the bill centers around protecting the children from the dangers of exposure to e-liquids. So, to make that solution work they restrict all people from importing e-liquid and nicotine into the state without a license to do so.

I've read through the bill several times and I find additional insight each time. I continually wonder why they don't outlaw alcohol. It's alcohol that kills teenagers, not e-juice. We require people who don't look to be over 30 to present driver's licenses when buying alcohol. Wouldn't it just be sufficient to do that for e-liquid purchases?

I know that Stormy's checks IDs. I bought a roll of titanium wire the other day in the local Stormy's Vapor Cellar store and they actually checked my ID. I smiled and said, "I don't look to be over 18?". The employee told me they check everybody to make sure. GOOD FOR THEM! They are protecting the kids from buying vaping products.

 

[zoiDman]

If you are caught putting it into a personal vaporizer then you have made your intent quite clear.

ETA: buying the VG is perfectly legal. Vaping it is not. That is the letter of that law.

I think the Chances of someone who does DIY for Personal Use being charged with a Misdemeanor are about the same as for those who Cut the Tag off their Mattresses. LOL.

BTW - This Isn't a "Law". And Shouldn't be referred to it as such. It's a Bill. A Bill that might be Amended or Not even be Passed. It would be a Shame for someone to come to this Thread and then leave thinking that this was the "Law" in Georgia.

BTW2 - How did we now Jump to Vaping being Illegal?

BTW3 - Setting aside all the Extreme Interpretations as to how this Bill could be Implemented if passed into Law for a second, How can this Legislation be Stopped? And if Not Stopped, amended to something more Manageable?

 

[zoiDman]

The stated reason for the bill centers around protecting the children from the dangers of exposure to e-liquids. So, to make that solution work they restrict all people from importing e-liquid and nicotine into the state without a license to do so.

...

My Experience with things like this is that "Saving the Children" are usually way down the List of Goals to be Achieved. But it is at the Top of the List of PR Talking Points for Justification for the Legislation.

What kinda of Feedback are you seeing from B&M's on all this? And do you know if there is Any Unified Opposition being formed to Combat this Bill thru Legislative Channels?

 

[DaveP]

My Experience with things like this is that "Saving the Children" are usually way down the List of Goals to be Achieved. But it is at the Top of the List of PR Talking Points for Justification for the Legislation.

What kinda of Feedback are you seeing from B&M's on all this? And do you know if there is Any Unified Opposition being formed to Combat this Bill thru Legislative Channels?

There's only one B&M in town that I buy from - Stormy's. Carolyn, the owner stays on top of this type of thing and is active with an association of B&M owners across the state. She's out and about spending time in 4 or 5 stores that she's opened in several mid GA cities, so it's hard to catch her in the Macon store, which was the first she opened. When she's there she's in the back office handling administrative duties most of the time.

There's an association of vendors that she's active in. I can't recall the name. I suppose that they will all become intimately involved with this bill before it progresses much further. The Atlanta area is full of ecig vendors and they have only a short distance to drive to the capital office buildings right there in downtown Atlanta.