FDA Who will survive the FDA Regs?

[gtianz]

What is stopping a manufacturer like Provari from moving to Canada and selling their products by mail order?
Can't imagine many hollow metal tubes getting stopped by Customs. Similarly juice shouldn't garner much attention either. And seeing how these companies sell product globally for the most part why even worry about the US market?

 

[sofarsogood]

What is stopping a manufacturer like Provari from moving to Canada and selling their products by mail order?
Can't imagine many hollow metal tubes getting stopped by Customs. Similarly juice shouldn't garner much attention either. And seeing how these companies sell product globally for the most part why even worry about the US market?

I don't remember if this has been mentioned already. US makers of vaping products don't have to move anywhere. Anything they export is not subject to any US regulations. The US companies with good offshore markets can go right on serving them just like the good old days. Who needs to move are the US youtube reviewers. I wonder if Congressman Hunter has a stockpile. What about that movie actor guy, I forget his name, Leonardo Dicapprio? Are there any celebrity hoarders?

 

[Ed_C]

So are their restrictions on reviewing vape gear or just selling it? Won't it be like tobacco products and minors, where possession isn't illegal.

 

[traten]

What I'm learning from this thread is that the combined knowledge and wisdom of the vape community will defeat any attempt by any government to control our pursuit of happiness. (Whatever that consists of in your mind). We represent a collective consciousness. Here's my personal solution, one I'm not asking anyone else to adopt. It's simply another person's voice in the crowd:

1. I have a life-long nicotine addiction and I'm an old man. Vaping has saved me from its worst effects by reducing -possibly eliminating- the harmful particulates present in the combustion of tobacco.

2. My grandfather brewed bathtub beer during prohibition. Prohibition did not stand, but his knowledge of the brewing process did. I loved the man and will follow his example.

Here's my plan:

1. A lifetime gardener, I know how to grow things. I will grow tobacco. I ordered seeds on eBay from the US and a five-packet of various variety from Russia. I've tested germination and it's good. In the spring a portion of my small garden will be given over to tobacco cultivation. YouTube is filled with videos about growing, harvesting, curing, and fermentation. Google

2. I will learn how to extract nicotine from the leaves, follow existing recipes available here on ECF, using easily purchased products, and make my vape juices. My mods and coils allow for infinite usage without the need for digital components.

3. Failing that (and I'm not planning to fail), I'll just smoke the damn tobacco like I've been doing since age 13. Prohibition be damned. Freedom is my middle name.

 

[Rossum]

Here's my plan:

1. A lifetime gardener, I know how to grow things. I will grow tobacco. I ordered seeds on eBay from the US and a five-packet of various variety from Russia. I've tested germination and it's good. In the spring a portion of my small garden will be given over to tobacco cultivation. YouTube is filled with videos about growing, harvesting, curing, and fermentation. Google

2. I will learn how to extract nicotine from the leaves, follow existing recipes available here on ECF, using easily purchased products, and make my vape juices. My mods and coils allow for infinite usage without the need for digital components.

I believe it would be completely legal for you to do that too, provided you don't sell any of the juices you make.

The fly in the ointment is the nicotine extraction. My understanding is that it isn't easy or cost-effective to do on a small scale, and you'd probably come out ahead if you just bought a lifetime supply of nic and put it in your freezer.

 

[traten]

I believe it would be completely legal for you to do that too, provided you don't sell any of the juices you make.

The fly in the ointment is the nicotine extraction. My understanding is that it isn't easy or cost-effective to do on a small scale, and you'd probably come out ahead if you just bought a lifetime supply of nic and put it in your freezer.

I hear you, Rossum, and you are no doubt correct about both not easy or cost-effective. What's driving me, though, is complete freedom from those that would try to bend us to their will. I say to them-- please, please, don't tell me what to do. It's not about making money selling juice.

 

[PhiHalcyon2]

Since the FDA's Deeming Regulation is, for the most part, statutorily invalid, I think that it is grossly premature to be worried about what type of vaping products will survive regulation. It is rather the FDA that should be worried about how much of its deeming regulation will be able to survive judicial review. The FDA is so confused about the true scope of its chapter IX authority that I wouldn't be surprised if its deeming regulation is set aside in its entirety.

 

[Ed_C]

Since the FDA's Deeming Regulation is, for the most part, statutorily invalid, I think that it is grossly premature to be worried about what type of vaping products will survive regulation. It is rather the FDA that should be worried about how much of its deeming regulation will be able to survive judicial review. The FDA is so confused about the true scope of its chapter IX authority that I wouldn't be surprised if its deeming regulation is set aside in its entirety.

I hope you're right.........

 

[skoony]

I hope you're right.........

Ditto.
Mike

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

It is rather the FDA that should be worried about how much of its deeming regulation will be able to survive judicial review.

Hope to be wrong but I suspect most all of it will remain. This isn't a civil case. As I understand it, the judge doesn't have to prove how smart the FDA is in the science of things (after all, judges are not scientists)... in this instance she merely has to analyze the logic used by the FDA to claim rightful authority given to them by yet another vague and ambiguous law passed by Congress.

Keep in mind my legal experience doesn't go beyond arguing with a city clerk about the right for dog to roam the woods freely without a city license. (I went down in flames incidentally).

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

Oops, duplicate post.

 

[dobroeutro]

Anything related to harm reduction is a good thing, including the iQos.

Perhaps, but not if it's the only choice or 1 of limited choices. I don't particularly care for others making decisions/choices for me...

 

[Verb]

I hear you, Rossum, and you are no doubt correct about both not easy or cost-effective. What's driving me, though, is complete freedom from those that would try to bend us to their will. I say to them-- please, please, don't tell me what to do. It's not about making money selling juice.

This would take care of the extraction: Extractors - Ocolabs

I didn't know small scale supercritical CO2 extraction was a thing. Your post got me searching the web a bit.

I'm not sure of the best methods & equipment for isolating the nic.

 

[ENAUD]

This would take care of the extraction: Extractors - Ocolabs

I didn't know small scale supercritical CO2 extraction was a thing. Your post got me searching the web a bit.

I'm not sure of the best methods & equipment for isolating the nic.

That is very cool! I wonder if there is published info on what temp and pressure to use for nicotine extraction. I can see a potential investment opportunity here down the road for some nicotine bootleggers if these deeming regs stick.

 

[traten]

Verb, Enaud, thanks for the info and advice. You know the old Lao Tzu proverb, A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. Here's step 1.

 

[englishmick]

That is very cool! I wonder if there is published info on what temp and pressure to use for nicotine extraction. I can see a potential investment opportunity here down the road for some nicotine bootleggers if these deeming regs stick.

I did some research way back.

Seems like there are 2 main problems with the cheap home methods. First is the low concentrations of nic that can be achieved. Second is the impurities that you end up with.

I read an outline description of the method that is used commercially. It was very complicated, and involved a bunch of scary solvents and advanced equipment in order to get high concentrations and the level of purity we are used to. And you have to know how to get rid of all the solvents from the mix and so forth. And carry out critical testing at every stage of the process. One guy with some lab experience estimated that it would take around $75K worth of equipment, plus some serious knowledge.

He also said another problem is that the type of equipment involved is only manufactured for commercial users. Nobody sells small scale versions of the machines. He said that someone with sufficient expertise, like PHD level chemistry level, would be able to put together a smaller scale version of the system. But it would still require a quite large lab space and hard to get equipment. And there isn't an easy way of obtaining all the chemicals involved in small quantities.

With all the stuff you would need to get, if people were making nic and selling it on the black market there would be a major paper trail they could follow. Maybe someone will figure it all out. But I would be nervous about buying nic produced in a home lab.

 

[Verb]

With the apparatus linked above, CO2 is the only solvent. A couple fractioning columns and you could get there. A benchtop supercritical CO2 essential oil extractor is new to me. I know they haven't been on the market for very long. The green market may help us out in more than just saving our hardware.

So, for $5000 it looks like you can put together a setup for personal use. The main issue is the safe handling of the final product before dilution and any alkaloids you choose to discard.

 

[Rossum]

Verb, Enaud, thanks for the info and advice. You know the old Lao Tzu proverb, A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. Here's step 1.

Seems like the wrong time of year to be starting tobacco seeds?

 

[ENAUD]

Seems like the wrong time of year to be starting tobacco seeds?

Yeah, they are on the second cutting around here . Them plants get pretty large too.

 

[traten]

That was the germination test to see if the seeds were fresh and vigorous. They are. The main crop will be started in February. I will, though, continue these under lights just to get familiar with them and gain a feel for how they grow on. It's a learning process at this point. Fun.