Lmao that may very well be true, but I like batteries, and Im still interested in whateverone thinks. Id like to not make another purchase for a few years if possible.
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If you never bring your cells below 3.7 then that's your cutoff and 4x20A cells is alright at 300W. Personally I would go the safe route and use the 25A cells to give myself some headroom and account for the efficiency of the chip.
The best way to store your batteries is at around 3.6V and to check on them periodically.
I dont think vaping at 300W is necessary but to each their own. Store your cells as I suggested 3 times and they will be great. Charge them when you are ready to use them.
Please check out Moochs blog article about extending the life of your battery. The link is in my first reply in this thread. He says exactly what I am recommending.
I'm not trying to call you out here I'm just posing questions and offering advice based on my understanding of your situation and calculating current draw for a quad cell mod.
Wattage divided by number of cells divided by cutoff voltage divided by .9 (for efficiency of the chip.)
A quad cell mod has a lot more room to play when you cutoff your cells at 3.7V(which is a great idea and my personal cutoff is 3.6V so we agree there).
The best way to store your batteries is at around 3.6V and to check on them periodically.
I dont think vaping at 300W is necessary but to each their own. Store your cells as I suggested 3 times and they will be great. Charge them when you are ready to use them.
Please check out Moochs blog article about extending the life of your battery. The link is in my first reply in this thread. He says exactly what I am recommending.
I'm not trying to call you out here I'm just posing questions and offering advice based on my understanding of your situation and calculating current draw for a quad cell mod.
Wattage divided by number of cells divided by cutoff voltage divided by .9 (for efficiency of the chip.)
A quad cell mod has a lot more room to play when you cutoff your cells at 3.7V(which is a great idea and my personal cutoff is 3.6V so we agree there).
Yeah I have 10 cells and another MOD addition and needed more! Now I have a 4 cell on my wish list and thinking of ordering another 10 and another charger because I will need another charger with another 10 cells!
Whether you or calling me out or not, I dont know. But how exactly are you giving me good advice to suggest vaping with 20A batteries at 300W? Forget the safety of the cutofff voltage for one second. What is the advantage of using 20A batteries? The capacity? The price?
Its not the price, because 30A batteries are less expensive, and its not the capacity, because the majority of that capacity time will be spent at a voltage level below the 3.6 cutoff that we are talking about. The data Mooch has put out is not comprehensive enough to figure this out, since he tested batteries at constant amp draws, not constant power output, but I am very confident that you would be vaping for a similar length of time at a safe current draw with both types of batteries. You might have a little less time with 30A batteries (this would depend if 20A batteries stay above 3.6V for a longer time than 30A batteries take to reach the mod's cutoff voltage at 300W), but even with a 3.6 cutoff voltage, on .9 efficiency mod you are hitting 23A, so you are way safer using 30A batteries until they discharge then 20 batteries down to 3.6 volts. The 20A batteries will have better performance (higher voltage under load) within these contraints, but at 300W I dont care about that slight difference in hit, I care about safety. Come on Darth, this is actually terrible advice, to try to convince someone to use 20A batteries in a scenario where 30A batteries would guarantee safety if some sort error arises within the mod's display, or within the user's level of caution. And while 25A batteries might appear to be pretty safe enough, what is the big deal? First of all, they are not safe enough if ran down to 3.2V cutoff voltage on a .9 efficiency mod. They are even less safe at 3V cutoff on an .85 efficiency mod, which are what I believe to be the accurate specs for the RX300. The real world has many more variables then just what we are using to do these calculations. For this much power, I'd rather use the safest batteries available. Youre just playing with some numbers in Ohm's law and saying: you could vape with 25A batteries at 300w and be fine within these constraints... No. I want to be safe, period. I'd rather just recharge the 30As when they discharge then check and see if my HG2s reach cutoff. I dont want to deal with the mistake of forgetting to check.
I have never said I want to vape at 300W very often, or plan to. On the contrary, this is the whole reason why I am trying to preserve my HB4s.
I have never discussed whether 30A batteries are better than 20A batteries for vaping at 40W. I did say I prefer VTC5A over HD2C batteries for vaping at 80 to 100W at work. Whether or not 25A batteries give more voltage under load than 20A, after X amount of hits, is not something you can determine from Mooch's data. You can only determine safe amp draws from his data.
I like your advice on storage though.
What you did say was that your personal cutoff votlage was 3.7V. If that is true and you actually never discharge your batteries below 3.7V then all Im saying is that a 20A cell would be fine for vaping at 300W.
Im glad you want to be safe "Period" and by all means have the HB6s on hand for when you do want to vape at above 240W. But to be totally clear, there is no way to "guarantee" safety when dealing with high amp batteries at very high wattages. Is 4x30A cells safer at 300W than 4x20A cells? Yes, absolutely because it gives you room to go beyond your 3.7V cutoff. I am not advising you to use 20A cells at 300W, but I am showing you that it can be done safely within the paramaters you have outlined. I do not advise vaping above 240W ever! Period! Very few builds would actually require this kind of wattage. If you do vape above 240W the you absolutely should have 4x30A cells but that does not guarantee safety.
I apologize for any misunderstanding between us. All I can say for my side of all of this, is that from your posts early on in this thread it seemed(to me) as though you wanted your cells to last longer between charges as well as information on how to store cells that you werent going to have in daily rotation. If you want your cells to last longer between charges then you need lower CDR and higher mAh(that is always the trade off, the higher the mAh, the lower the CDR and vise versa). I was just trying to show that what I thought you wanted could be obtained in a safe manner and why your VTC5a would last longer between charges than your HD2C.
I also still honestly believe that if you are vaping at under 230W(240W actually but lets add some extra padding for safety's sake, and Im basing that on a 3.2V cutoff), then the best choice for batteries in a 4 cell mod is either the Samsung 30Q, the LG HG2(as long as you can find authentic cells), or the Sony VTC6. They will all provide the current needed safely and they will last much longer between charges. Yes you should absolutely have cells with higher CDR on hand for the times when you are above that wattage, but if you're not above that wattage then 25A and 30A cells are no safer than 20A and you are likely to be happier with the life between charges on the 20A cells.
Apologies once more as it seems that I havent been clear enough with my replies and that I have obviously misunderstood your questions. I hope Ive clarified my side of things.
Cheers
Im glad you want to be safe "Period" and by all means have the HB6s on hand for when you do want to vape at above 240W. But to be totally clear, there is no way to "guarantee" safety when dealing with high amp batteries at very high wattages. Is 4x30A cells safer at 300W than 4x20A cells? Yes, absolutely because it gives you room to go beyond your 3.7V cutoff. I am not advising you to use 20A cells at 300W, but I am showing you that it can be done safely within the paramaters you have outlined. I do not advise vaping above 240W ever! Period! Very few builds would actually require this kind of wattage. If you do vape above 240W the you absolutely should have 4x30A cells but that does not guarantee safety.
I apologize for any misunderstanding between us. All I can say for my side of all of this, is that from your posts early on in this thread it seemed(to me) as though you wanted your cells to last longer between charges as well as information on how to store cells that you werent going to have in daily rotation. If you want your cells to last longer between charges then you need lower CDR and higher mAh(that is always the trade off, the higher the mAh, the lower the CDR and vise versa). I was just trying to show that what I thought you wanted could be obtained in a safe manner and why your VTC5a would last longer between charges than your HD2C.
I also still honestly believe that if you are vaping at under 230W(240W actually but lets add some extra padding for safety's sake, and Im basing that on a 3.2V cutoff), then the best choice for batteries in a 4 cell mod is either the Samsung 30Q, the LG HG2(as long as you can find authentic cells), or the Sony VTC6. They will all provide the current needed safely and they will last much longer between charges. Yes you should absolutely have cells with higher CDR on hand for the times when you are above that wattage, but if you're not above that wattage then 25A and 30A cells are no safer than 20A and you are likely to be happier with the life between charges on the 20A cells.
Apologies once more as it seems that I havent been clear enough with my replies and that I have obviously misunderstood your questions. I hope Ive clarified my side of things.
Cheers
I do typically swap my batteries at 3.7. Maybe there will be a time when I wont. But I don't need to pay 2x as much for lower CDR batteries if I swap out at 3.7 anyway, so you keep making this moot point about how 20A cells have more capacity. I'm not sacrificing safety and flexibility for unneeded capacity. Some people won't even go past 50% CDR when vaping. So, depending on how cautious you desire to be, the 20As cells would actually have the least capacity if you need to set a high cutoff voltage for charging them. If I feel more comfortable using 25A cells than 20A cells, why suggest that using 20A cells are fine? I was never even asking what kind of batteries I need. Maybe it would have been better not to mention why I wanted the tips on storage lol. I don't care how unlikely there are to be problems with a cell when using it in a range below it's rated CDR, a higher rated cell is still safer, regardless of whether it is a little safer or a lot safer.
BTW, I'm not mad at you, I'm just in total disagreement with you about using 20A cells for vaping on a mod with a .85 efficiency and 3V cutoff. I'm also in disagreement with you about 20A cells performing better for my typical vaping style. At the voltage cutoff I typically use, 25A cells like the HD2C and VTC5a will have had a higher average voltage under load than any of the batteries you mention. Maybe not much, but those batteries also don't have much more capacity than VTC5As, and even the HD2Cs have a great capacity for my work span. I get 8800 mah with HD2Cs plus added safety. I dont need to pay extra for an inflexible, less safe 12000mah. I can find a use for the 25A if i want to, and remain safer all the time. So why are we going tit-for-tat about this? I am actually right lol. I would recommend to anyone that they save a few dollars and get HD2Cs for their 4 cell, 300W+ box mod, and VTC5As if they want to spend the same amount of cash the 30Q or HG2's cost. The flexibility, safety, and performance trump the extra battery life, and by an astounding margin even when you are using more than one set of batteries (17800 mah for 2 sets of HD2Cs, same price as 1 set of VTC6's, or only about 125% of the cost of a pair of 30Qs).
Just to reiterate, why spend more money on a product that is less safe, for added capacity that will never be needed. You can get 2 sets of HD2Cs for about the same price as the ones you mentioned. And if you spend less on a 20A cell like the 25R, you are not even getting any benefit in capacity. Recommending someone to use a 20A cell on a single battery mod would be a good deal. Maybe a dual too if its not that powerful.
Again though, I'm not mad at you. I just think you are a little misguided about recommending batteries (not understanding them, you obviously do) and lack some reading comprehension. You keep talking about HB6s, but Ive probably written HB4 100 times by now lol. Just kidding with you man. I would still vape with you, and appreciate your advice about storing batteries.
BTW, I'm not mad at you, I'm just in total disagreement with you about using 20A cells for vaping on a mod with a .85 efficiency and 3V cutoff. I'm also in disagreement with you about 20A cells performing better for my typical vaping style. At the voltage cutoff I typically use, 25A cells like the HD2C and VTC5a will have had a higher average voltage under load than any of the batteries you mention. Maybe not much, but those batteries also don't have much more capacity than VTC5As, and even the HD2Cs have a great capacity for my work span. I get 8800 mah with HD2Cs plus added safety. I dont need to pay extra for an inflexible, less safe 12000mah. I can find a use for the 25A if i want to, and remain safer all the time. So why are we going tit-for-tat about this? I am actually right lol. I would recommend to anyone that they save a few dollars and get HD2Cs for their 4 cell, 300W+ box mod, and VTC5As if they want to spend the same amount of cash the 30Q or HG2's cost. The flexibility, safety, and performance trump the extra battery life, and by an astounding margin even when you are using more than one set of batteries (17800 mah for 2 sets of HD2Cs, same price as 1 set of VTC6's, or only about 125% of the cost of a pair of 30Qs).
Just to reiterate, why spend more money on a product that is less safe, for added capacity that will never be needed. You can get 2 sets of HD2Cs for about the same price as the ones you mentioned. And if you spend less on a 20A cell like the 25R, you are not even getting any benefit in capacity. Recommending someone to use a 20A cell on a single battery mod would be a good deal. Maybe a dual too if its not that powerful.
Again though, I'm not mad at you. I just think you are a little misguided about recommending batteries (not understanding them, you obviously do) and lack some reading comprehension. You keep talking about HB6s, but Ive probably written HB4 100 times by now lol. Just kidding with you man. I would still vape with you, and appreciate your advice about storing batteries.
Not saying anything about your use and needs, but for me LG hg2s and Samsung 30qs are the better choice. At the wattage I vape they provide better battery life, and they are not that much more expensive at my battery vendor of choice. Just saying that you might be right in your case, but what's best for others varies.
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Not sure if you have a 4 cell mod or not, and even if you do, if you feel you need the extra battery life then thats fine. You see how you guys love these damn 20A batteries? Why anyone else would chime in on this makes no sense to me. This has nothing to do with why I posted this this thread, and doesnt help me, being someine that can read a graph and do division. You all just love pointing out how 20A gives the most possible capacity out of all the 18650 batteries useful for vaping, while having the lowest possible amp rating for most people's vaping style, so its just so amazingly perfect that such a level coincidentally happens to be the one with the most battery capapcity. I get it. I really, really do get it, and Im happy that you are comfortable consistently drawing close to your batteries' CDR, or even well under it if you vape at the lowest levels of your mod's capable performance. I already went into detail about exactly why it made no sense for me to get 20A batteries. I stand by my opinion still, which is that unless you need 12000mah from your 4 cell mod, 25A batteries, specifically HD2Cs and VTC5as are the better choice for your 300+w capable made, as they are safer, stronger, more flexible, and provide excellent battery life. I know how to read Mooch's graphs and divide Watts by volts. I have come to a different conclusion than what is apparently that of most, that I believe is solid in logic.
If you read my other replies, you can easily find the part where I state 20A batteries like a 30q are the best for single cell mods, period, probably dual mods, and triple and quad cell mods alike if you bought them purely for battery capacity.
Your hostility towards other members is why I responded. Feel free to use whatever cells you choose, but no need to put down other posters. As for your question, batteries are best stored at around 3.7v but you should know that they will degrade with time sitting on the shelf as well. Better to use them rather than keep them waiting.
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Hostility? That's funny. I never said anything hostile. I think you sense hostility only because you are now sensing regret about purchasing 20A cells for your mod
To say "other members" is false. I had a debate about something with exactly one other member. What we debated about was brought up by the other member, not on topic with my original post, and continued as long as did only because he or she continued to make his case everytime I repeated reasons for using the equipment that I do.
If you look harder enough, you will see that I am right. You are taking an opinion on batteries personally, which is kind of sad, and entered a thread to respond to the off topic conversation, which is also sad. You didn't have to do any of this; you clearly came here to argue with me. I'll ask you to do the same thing I asked Darth to do: just drop it. I'm not going to apologize for going back and forth. I'm allowed express my own views on an opinion offered to me, and I am also allowed to continue to make my case when challenged about it. I said I would still vape with guy, and you too, as long as you stop taking my opinion about 20A batteries so personally.
I request that a mod delete this thread. This is off topic and going too far now; I dont need to be made to look like a bad guy by senior forum members over an off topic discussion regarding opinions about batteries. Later.
EDIT: Your last comment about battery storage was exsctly the type of info. And response I was seeking, so thanks for that. Of course, I like to ask people why they have their opinions, so I can better decide of I agree with them, especially in a case where I requested them to change my own behavior, but I'm really over this thread already.
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The relative performances of a set of batteries will change very little, if at all, when going from constant-current pulsed to constant-power pulses. There's nothing fundamentally different between constant-resistance, constant-current, and constant-power discharges, just the changes in current levels over time. The best performers will still be the same for both scenarios, and by about the same amounts.
That's not true.
You can use the pulsed discharge graphs for the batteries in question, select a discharge current level, and either see how long the cell lasts before hitting the cutoff voltage of your choice or pick the same time point and see what the voltage under load is for all the cells.
Just a couple of observations...
There would be at most a 5°C difference in the temperatures of VTC6's, VTC5A's, HD2C's, and HB4's when pulsed at 30A down to a resting voltage of about 3.7V (which is significantly higher than the voltages reached during vaping and can't be used to compare cells). This is down to 2.5V so stopping before this would result in even a smaller spread. This 5°C spread is inconsequential since venting occurs at about 100°C hotter and thermal runaway about 200°C hotter. There's just no difference in the risk of bringing a battery to 40°C versus 45°C. Especially since we don't know the venting and runaway temperatures of each.
Could running a few degrees cooler be theoretically safer? Yes. But not in any practical sense as the odds of the battery being brough to within, let's say, 4°C of venting during use is very small indeed versus all the other temperatures it could reach. Realistically the two batteries would be within a degree or two of each other if only brought down to a resting voltage of 3.7V.
IMHO the degree of safety, or lack thereof, is the same for any of the batteries being discussed. This brings voltage under load and capacity to the forefront in our considerations for the "best" batteries. Selecting a voltage under load that would give us a 3.7V resting voltage and seeing how long each of these batteries lasted when pulsed before hitting that voltage would give you the best battery for the job (since the temperatures are close and the chemistries almost the same).
Is my approach the best for everyone? No. It's only my approach. But we should all take care to priortize only where appropriate. A few degrees-C, a tenth of a volt, a couple of minutes, none of these make any practical difference in safety or performance.
But, if someone says that a slightly lower operating temperature is a critical safety consideration for them then we should accept that. If others say that a longer running time is more important then we should accept that. I think we're all saying that, I just wanted to say it too.
There would be at most a 5°C difference in the temperatures of VTC6's, VTC5A's, HD2C's, and HB4's when pulsed at 30A down to a resting voltage of about 3.7V (which is significantly higher than the voltages reached during vaping and can't be used to compare cells). This is down to 2.5V so stopping before this would result in even a smaller spread. This 5°C spread is inconsequential since venting occurs at about 100°C hotter and thermal runaway about 200°C hotter. There's just no difference in the risk of bringing a battery to 40°C versus 45°C. Especially since we don't know the venting and runaway temperatures of each.
Could running a few degrees cooler be theoretically safer? Yes. But not in any practical sense as the odds of the battery being brough to within, let's say, 4°C of venting during use is very small indeed versus all the other temperatures it could reach. Realistically the two batteries would be within a degree or two of each other if only brought down to a resting voltage of 3.7V.
IMHO the degree of safety, or lack thereof, is the same for any of the batteries being discussed. This brings voltage under load and capacity to the forefront in our considerations for the "best" batteries. Selecting a voltage under load that would give us a 3.7V resting voltage and seeing how long each of these batteries lasted when pulsed before hitting that voltage would give you the best battery for the job (since the temperatures are close and the chemistries almost the same).
Is my approach the best for everyone? No. It's only my approach. But we should all take care to priortize only where appropriate. A few degrees-C, a tenth of a volt, a couple of minutes, none of these make any practical difference in safety or performance.
But, if someone says that a slightly lower operating temperature is a critical safety consideration for them then we should accept that. If others say that a longer running time is more important then we should accept that. I think we're all saying that, I just wanted to say it too.
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