28 ga vs. 24 ga Higher Resistance

[akksnv]

I've been building coils with 28 gauge Kanthal but had some 24 gauge that I wanted to try out, but now I'm not sure how much power I need for "the same" vape. I've been building single coils with about 5 wraps around a screwdriver (maybe 3.2mm) that come out to about 1.22 ohms, and I would run them at 13.8 watts.

I wanted the new coil with the 24 gauge to be about the same, but a little lower resistance. I did 11 or 12 wraps at 3mm and it came out to 0.99 ohms.

I immediately noticed it takes the thicker wire longer to heat up, but that is sort of to be expected. Now my question is how much power should I "reasonably" be using to get the thicker wire to heat up quicker and account for the slightly lower resistance? I say "reasonably" because I don't want to kick the wattage way up just because I can, I want to be about where I was at with the 28 gauge.

It seems like about 19 or 20 watts "feels" right, but that seems like sort of a big jump for just a 0.23 ohm difference. Then again, looking at the "heat flux" on Steam Engine (which I don't really know much about) it looks like it's saying I'd need 45 watts to be where I was at with the 28 gauge.

Also, just an FYI, I already had the 24 gauge, it came with a kit. I wanted to try it out partially because I already had it, but also to get more surface area and a more durable coil. I also like to kind of limit myself... I know I could have more power with the 28 gauge, but then I might start to like it... and want to try more... and like it haha... so I stick to 13.8 watts at 1.2 ohms to control myself. For this reason, I don't want to jump to 30 watts with the 24 gauge, then go back to the 28 gauge and not be happy at 13.8 watts.

Edit: forgot to mention, FWIW these coils are going in a Subtank Mini. I use an iStick 100 at home and a Pico at work/going out, both with Samsung 25R's.

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[Who_Dey_1991]

When I first started building, I did either 4 wraps of 26g @ 3mm, or 6 wraps of 26g @ 2mm. Dual coils, comes out to about .3 ohms running 35W. But I started getting a lot of burnt hits because the wire would get too hot too quickly. So lately I've been building 7 wraps of 24g. And yes it does take longer to heat the wire, but I left my power at 35W, occasionally going up to 40. After a couple seconds to get the wire hot on the first drag, the following drags give me pretty much the same vape as my previous builds, but they don't get too hot.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I've been building coils with 28 gauge Kanthal but had some 24 gauge that I wanted to try out, but now I'm not sure how much power I need for "the same" vape. I've been building single coils with about 5 wraps around a screwdriver (maybe 3.2mm) that come out to about 1.22 ohms, and I would run them at 13.8 watts.

I wanted the new coil with the 24 gauge to be about the same, but a little lower resistance. I did 11 or 12 wraps at 3mm and it came out to 0.99 ohms.

I immediately noticed it takes the thicker wire longer to heat up, but that is sort of to be expected. Now my question is how much power should I "reasonably" be using to get the thicker wire to heat up quicker and account for the slightly lower resistance? I say "reasonably" because I don't want to kick the wattage way up just because I can, I want to be about where I was at with the 28 gauge.

It seems like about 19 or 20 watts "feels" right, but that seems like sort of a big jump for just a 0.23 ohm difference. Then again, looking at the "heat flux" on Steam Engine (which I don't really know much about) it looks like it's saying I'd need 45 watts to be where I was at with the 28 gauge.

Also, just an FYI, I already had the 24 gauge, it came with a kit. I wanted to try it out partially because I already had it, but also to get more surface area and a more durable coil. I also like to kind of limit myself... I know I could have more power with the 28 gauge, but then I might start to like it... and want to try more... and like it haha... so I stick to 13.8 watts at 1.2 ohms to control myself. For this reason, I don't want to jump to 30 watts with the 24 gauge, then go back to the 28 gauge and not be happy at 13.8 watts.

Edit: forgot to mention, FWIW these coils are going in a Subtank Mini. I use an iStick 100 at home and a Pico at work/going out, both with Samsung 25R's.

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If you are achieving basically the same hit as before the watts should not make a difference. Kinda like driving to the store in a wv bug vs corvette. Both get you there, its just one can get you there faster.

 

[Zakillah]

You are comparing a 5 wrap 28G to a 11 wrap 24G. That's ALOT more metal to heat.
First of all...why do you even care about the resistance when you´re using it on a regulated device? You don't have to; just so you know. If you make the 24G with even more wraps it´ll end up at 1,2 Ohm as well; but it wont vape nearly the same as the 5 wrap 28G; obviously.
I also don't get what exactly you want to achieve here? A build that takes a little more power? If so, just use the 28G and make more wraps; like around 15. That still will heat alot faster then the 24G and will handle more power as well.

 

[akksnv]

... but I left my power at 35W, occasionally going up to 40. After a couple seconds to get the wire hot on the first drag, the following drags give me pretty much the same vape as my previous builds, but they don't get too hot.

Thanks for the feedback, after I posted this I took the wattage down to 16 and noticed the same thing. Since I normally take a couple hits at a time, this is definitely good to know.

If you are achieving basically the same hit as before the watts should not make a difference. Kinda like driving to the store in a wv bug vs corvette. Both get you there, its just one can get you there faster.

Good point... although I suppose what that would also imply is that I'm trying to drive a corvette like it's a vw bug :/ haha

You are comparing a 5 wrap 28G to a 11 wrap 24G. That's ALOT more metal to heat.
...
I also don't get what exactly you want to achieve here?

I realize it's a lot more metal to heat up, that's why I was asking the question. I know it's gonna be different, my question was mainly how much different should I expect it to be.

As far as what I'm trying to achieve, like I said towards the end of my post, I had some 24 gauge wire that I wanted to try out to get more surface area and a more durable coil. I've had this wire for over a year so I figured I'd try it out.

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[nocigsnomore]

More wraps and the wick takes longer to saturate between pulls. If more than 7 wraps for a 3mm coil it's best to use rayon. Thanks to Cigatron for this info.

 

[akksnv]

More wraps and the wick takes longer to saturate between pulls. If more than 7 wraps for a 3mm coil it's best to use rayon. Thanks to Cigatron for this info.

Uh oh, good to know, thanks for the heads up. Why does it take longer to saturate with more wraps, assuming you still have the same amount of wick? Less of it exposed directly to the liquid?

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[Zakillah]

Bigger surface area with thicker wire is a myth. You'll get larger wick to coil contact area with thinner wire, using more wraps. Plus you have the bonus of having alot less metal to heat up.

Unless you really want the duribility, there is no need for the 24G.

 

[akksnv]

Thank you all for the quick feedback and advice. Can anyone comment on how many watts they would use for this particular setup? I realize you guys might not use this setup in the first place, but what seems reasonable... 15 watts, 30 watts, 45 watts...?

It's good to know I can run this at about what I'd run the 28 gauge coils at, but I'm also interested in what kind of "ballpark" wattage others would consider for this. I understand the "start low and work your way up" concept, but it would also be good to know if I'm under the low end of where other people might be, or right in the middle.

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[vapdivrr]

Thank you all for the quick feedback and advice. Can anyone comment on how many watts they would use for this particular setup? I realize you guys might not use this setup in the first place, but what seems reasonable... 15 watts, 30 watts, 45 watts...?

It's good to know I can run this at about what I'd run the 28 gauge coils at, but I'm also interested in what kind of "ballpark" wattage others would consider for this. I understand the "start low and work your way up" concept, but it would also be good to know if I'm under the low end of where other people might be, or right in the middle.

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You can run it at the same wattage you are running the 28g but it's just to slow and probably won't be as efficient in burning the juice. Personally if I was running that example, I would be using it at at least 30 watts. If you really want to use that wire, drop the diameter to a little under 3mm and drop the resistance a little, maybe in the .6 range , this way at least with those lower wattages it may heat up a little faster. Personally I feel if you want more durability in your wire, go to 26g because 24g is really for much higher power then your doing

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[Sugar_and_Spice]

Thank you all for the quick feedback and advice. Can anyone comment on how many watts they would use for this particular setup? I realize you guys might not use this setup in the first place, but what seems reasonable... 15 watts, 30 watts, 45 watts...?

It's good to know I can run this at about what I'd run the 28 gauge coils at, but I'm also interested in what kind of "ballpark" wattage others would consider for this. I understand the "start low and work your way up" concept, but it would also be good to know if I'm under the low end of where other people might be, or right in the middle.

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I'd say just start at where you use the smaller wire and work up from there. When you fine a setting you like stop. The only person you need to please is you. What others do works for them. As you know there are many ways to vape, isn't it great we can do what we want and what works for us.....

 

[nocigsnomore]

Uh oh, good to know, thanks for the heads up. Why does it take longer to saturate with more wraps, assuming you still have the same amount of wick? Less of it exposed directly to the liquid?

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I guess one can describe it like it takes longer time to fill a bigger bucket than a smaller one.

 

[Nomoreash]

vapdivrr is spot on, I would also advise not going over 26ga, above that you have potential ramp up and power issues with what your trying to do unless you have the right equipment.

To see a representation of you examples go to steam-engine.org and enter your parameters first using your 28ga, 5 wrap, 1.2 ohm example at 13.8 watts which gives a Heat Flux of 204 and heat capacity of 17.72. Heat flux represents coil heat and heat capacity represents coil lag.

Then enter 24ga with the same setup. I would also advise cutting your ohms in half, otherwise ramp up time is going to get out of hand with the extra thickness and wraps. .6 ohms will need around 6 wraps and to get the heat flux back to 204 the watts will need to be in the mid to high 20s.

Keep in mind this is just a visual representation, all the really matters is your preference but it can provide good insight and a baseline, can really see the different power requirements and in coil heat up and cool down times between the builds with the numbers.

 

[akksnv]

Personally if I was running that example, I would be using it at at least 30 watts. If you really want to use that wire, drop the diameter to a little under 3mm and drop the resistance a little, maybe in the .6 range , this way at least with those lower wattages it may heat up a little faster. Personally I feel if you want more durability in your wire, go to 26g because 24g is really for much higher power then your doing

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Thanks for throwing a number out, and for the suggestions. It's good at least for reference knowing I'm quite a bit under where you'd be, so going higher wouldn't be unreasonable. To anyone who doesn't get this reasoning, think of it like the VV pen-style ecigs many of us started with. Running it at 4 volts might have felt like things could be better, but cranking it up to 5 volts proved otherwise

To see a representation of you examples go to steam-engine.org and enter your parameters...

I went there and put in the information, but it looked like it was suggesting 45 watts, which seemed kind of high. That's why I wanted to come here and get some feedback from "real people" with experience.

I would also advise cutting your ohms in half, otherwise ramp up time is going to get out of hand with the extra thickness and wraps.

Agreed, I probably won't be repeating this same build haha but now I know . It's not bad, but "not bad" shouldn't be the goal.

Keep in mind this is just a visual representation, all the really matters is your preference but it can provide good insight and a baseline, can really see the different power requirements and in coil heat up and cool down times between the builds with the numbers.

Exactly, I realize in the end it comes down to preference, but it is nice to have a baseline. There's also a mathematical side to it, where different variables can produce one result, so changing one variable requires a change to another to get a similar result.



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[akksnv]

Just thought I'd post a quick update in case anyone is interested. I stuck with that build until the coil got kind of gunked up and it wasn't too bad. I ran it at about 18.5 watts throughout the day, and sometimes went up to around 20 watts at the end of the day. Ramp-up time wasn't too bad, but the additional power did drain my battery a little quicker (to be expected). I also noticed I never got any bad tasting hits. In the past I would sometimes get sort of burnt tasting hits, not horrible dry hits but they were definitely a little off. I'm guessing this might have been the metal getting too hot, and I didn't get it with this setup because there was so much metal it couldn't really get that hot (given the power I was using).

Once this coil started getting a little gunked, I decided to get some stainless steel wire and try it out, and so far I'm happy I did I used 28 guage SS316L, 7 wraps around a screwdriver that's about 3mm and it came out to about 1.10 ohms. No problems with ramp-up time (I learned SS heats up quicker than Kanthal), plus the added benefit of being able to try out TC mode Definitely worth the $4 or $5 for 100 feet, and I would recommend it to anyone that might happen to stumble across this in the future.

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[Jim_ MDP]

You can also explore the Pre-Heat feature of the newer firmware (or third party replacements) with the Pico, not the un-upgradeable non-TC i100 though.

In Power Mode with the 24g Kanthal, it would allow you to reduce the excess ramp-up time (11 wraps is a lot of wire) while reducing the concern of overheating on the second or subsequent draws.

Handy feature.

 

[akksnv]

You can also explore the Pre-Heat feature of the newer firmware (or third party replacements) with the Pico, not the un-upgradeable non-TC i100 though.

That would have been handy, thanks for the tip I just saw something about both newer firmware and custom firmware being available, are there any other features worth mentioning in either one? I did a quick search but mainly saw people talking about the voltage display being removed in a previous update.


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[Jim_ MDP]

That would have been handy, thanks for the tip I just saw something about both newer firmware and custom firmware being available, are there any other features worth mentioning in either one? I did a quick search but mainly saw people talking about the voltage display being removed in a previous update.


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I'm almost exclusively TC so JT's Pre-Heat doesn't help me (I haven't updated my many JTs in a while... had to rebuild my laptop's OS)... I understand that unlike say our DNA's Pre-Heat, the JoyeTech version is for Power Mode only not TC. And of all my JT mods... only the original VTC has the large display, though not the second battery of the new ones to keep the clock set during battery swaps.

So I just haven't had the urge, or need, to keep them up to date. Though the latest round from the 3rd parties may get me interested pretty soon... very Escribe-like with Real Time Monitoring display in the PC application side.

As for JoyeTech (JT, Eleaf & Wismec) and their displays... they went a tad insane about a year ago and started pumping out real, useful feature updates, and that's been fantastic... but they couldn't resist messing with the display layouts. I'd say at least every third change will annoy you, depending on what you liked, and what's now gone or altered.