A retrospective study on the health effects of vaping

[Toastyroadie]

You should read the last line of that piece.
"Welcome to the world of propaganda: you just had your first lesson in how easy it is to convince the general population to believe the opposite of the truth."
That piece was satire.

Whoa, what are you saying, that what he linked is satire? That's Rolygate, I don't believe that's satire, lol, he is saying that what we've been told about nicotine is a lie. I think you are taking that last line in the wrong way.

 

[englishmick]

If you use the argument that nicotine is not addictive as a premise, you actually weaken your position.

Only if it's an incorrect premise, and the people assessing the position are correct.

A year ago I was sure that nicotine was addictive, based solely on my experience with smoking. I blindly assumed that nicotine, which I assumed to be the primary active ingredient of cigarettes, must be the source of my addiction. Now I'm not so sure. You said:

Because the bulk of evidence is contrary to this position.

I'm not an expert in the field and I haven't read all the research. alien Traveler's post above was a really good breakdown of the complexities involved in answering this question. To my knowledge here has never been a population out in the wild using nicotine for substantial periods of time outside of smoking (snuff users maybe?), and certainly not through inhalation, so I assume the evidence would have to come from studies. and they would have to be fairly long term studies to provide useful information on addiction. How long have people been using patches and gum, how much addiction has been seen among that group? I suspect most patch users don't stay on them for a long time. I don't think it's very convincing to work back from the biochemical actions in the brain to effects in the real world.

Maybe the evidence is as clear cut and widespread as you say, could you point us to some other sources.

I would love to know the truth about this one.

 

[mattiem]

I think we're starting to split hairs a bit. It's hard to refute that there are stark differences between ingesting nicotine via cigarettes or other forms that don't include tobacco.

Nicotine is habit forming at the very least and addictive at the worst. But the important question is whether or not ingesting nicotine in responsible amounts as a habit without smoking or using tobacco products actually causes harm. I have yet to see anything that proves it does in any way shape or form. It's not like nicotine is new. It's been consumed by humans for 100's of years if not 1,000's. Without smoke or chewing up leaves, is it unhealthy? Are there any consequences? Anybody?

I guess that is where I was going. I don't see harm in enjoying nicotine without the smoke and rebel against being labeled an addict because of it.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I think we're starting to split hairs a bit. It's hard to refute that there are stark differences between ingesting nicotine via cigarettes or other forms that don't include tobacco.

Nicotine is habit forming at the very least and addictive at the worst. But the important question is whether or not ingesting nicotine in responsible amounts as a habit without smoking or using tobacco products actually causes harm. I have yet to see anything that proves it does in any way shape or form. It's not like nicotine is new. It's been consumed by humans for 100's of years if not 1,000's. Without smoke or chewing up leaves, is it unhealthy? Are there any consequences? Anybody?

If nicotine leads to high consumption of juice, is it healthy?

 

[Alien Traveler]

Whoa, what are you saying, that what he linked is satire? That's Rolygate, I don't believe that's satire, lol, he is saying that what we've been told about nicotine is a lie. I think you are taking that last line in the wrong way.

Yes, you are right, intended meaning was not a satire, but as presented it is rather funny.

 

[Bob Chill]

I guess that is where I was going. I don't see harm in enjoying nicotine without the smoke and rebel against being labeled an addict because of it.

Separating nicotine from smoking in discussions and news seems to be quite a challenge. They've been lumped together my entire life and it's time to move past that and COMPLETELY separate the 2 form each other. That's what inquiring minds really want to know. Especially on this forum.

 

[Dr. Robert Cranfield]

I think we're starting to split hairs a bit. It's hard to refute that there are stark differences between ingesting nicotine via cigarettes or other forms that don't include tobacco.

Nicotine is habit forming at the very least and addictive at the worst. But the important question is whether or not ingesting nicotine in responsible amounts as a habit without smoking or using tobacco products actually causes harm. I have yet to see anything that proves it does in any way shape or form. It's not like nicotine is new. It's been consumed by humans for 100's of years if not 1,000's. Without smoke or chewing up leaves, is it unhealthy? Are there any consequences? Anybody?

There are at a minimum 2 studies I know that show no adverse health effects from nicotine ysed over many years. One study in lab rats over 2 years showed only that the nicotine exposed group was thinner. The second was in people using the patch or gum. Again, no adverse health effects. It probably should be avoided in pregnancy as should caffeine and most other drugs.

 

[Bob Chill]

If nicotine leads to high consumption of juice, is it healthy?

If drinking coffee leads to high consumption of heavy cream and sugar, is it healthy? Apples to oranges. I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that chemically isolated moderate nicotine consumption is harming me clinically, biologically, metabolically, or whatever neat scientific term I can come up with.

 

[mattiem]

Separating nicotine from smoking in discussions and news seems to be quite a challenge. They've been lumped together my entire life and it's time to move past that and COMPLETELY separate the 2 form each other. That's what inquiring minds really want to know. Especially on this forum.

And I fear that some will see Dr. in front of someones name and automatically take what they say as gospel. I was trying to open the eyes of those that see it that way to other opinions. all JMHO

 

[Bob Chill]

There are at a minimum 2 studies I know that show no adverse health effects from nicotine ysed over many years. One study in lab rats over 2 years showed only that the nicotine exposed group was thinner. The second was in people using the patch or gum. Again, no adverse health effects. It probably should be avoided in pregnancy as should caffeine and most other drugs.

Thank you for this.

 

[Alien Traveler]

If drinking coffee leads to high consumption of heavy cream and sugar, is it healthy? Apples to oranges. I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that chemically isolated moderate nicotine consumption is harming me clinically, biologically, metabolically, or whatever neat scientific term I can come up with.

Nope. Not apple to oranges. Nic plays the same role in both smoking and vaping. It looks like it helps to attach a person to a process. If nic is not harmful by itself it promotes definitely harmful behavior like smoking, and possibly harmful (even if much less harmful) vaping. Absolutely the same thing.

 

[Bob Chill]

Nope. Not apple to oranges. Nic plays the same role in both smoking and vaping. It looks like it helps to attach a person to a process. If nic is not harmful by itself it promotes definitely harmful behavior like smoking, and possibly harmful (even if much less harmful) vaping. Absolutely the same thing.

No. Sorry. My question had nothing to do with the unknowns about inhaling pg/vg/artificial flavorings. You moved the goal posts. There are no conclusive facts to discuss about that. You and I both could be the center of a case study down the road on that one.

 

[Dr. Robert Cranfield]

This is actually quite a fun discussion. I love to people watch. Learning how people create opinions is fascinating. Let me throw another article out for opinions.

Addiction to the nicotine gum in never smokers

 

[awsum140]

Doctor, I am not being combative, but the conclusion is that addiction to nicotine gum is rare but it can happen. Isn't that true of many, many things? Chocolate, ice cream, alcohol and so on.

The other thing that hit me, and I am not picking on your survey just commenting in general, is that it was conducted on the internet with no controls or way to verify any of the information provided by the respondents. I have responded to more than one internet survey and try to be as truthful as possible, but I could very easily, and probably am, an exception to that level of honesty. While internet based surveys are interesting, only clinical studies conducted under controlled conditions produce real, verifiable and repeatable results. Internet studies can certainly provide a wealth of information, but since it is not verifiable, can be easily "spoofed", the value is diminished significantly.

 

[SleeZy]

Interesting reads:
Nicotine as Therapy
Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine. - PubMed - NCBI
The Great Nicotine Myth
Top 10 Studies on Nicotine You Need to Know About!

Edit: Adding a tag.
@Dr. Robert Cranfield

 

[crxess]

Hello Dr. and Welcome to ECF!

I've been here almost 3yrs. and am almost always logged on. In that time I have learned and attempted to teach so that others could benefit from something I truly believe in.

I'm almost 62, smoked for over 45 yrs. and instantly stopped with my first vapor product purchase. I had tried many times over the years to quit but I admit I am one of those what was truly addicted to smoking.

Since quitting My health has gotten better. I'm generally stronger and can do more without hitting the exhaustion wall. I also recover much faster from extreme exertion.

For me, Vaping has become more of a hobby than crutch. I enjoy purchasing new designs or equipment and testing/tinkering.
I have reduces my nicotine strength from an initial 18/24mg to 1/3mg and now make all my own e-liquids. This, to me minimizes any risk.

If I can answer any questions, feel free to contact me.

 

[Robino1]

This is actually quite a fun discussion. I love to people watch. Learning how people create opinions is fascinating. Let me throw another article out for opinions.

Addiction to the nicotine gum in never smokers

Very interesting read.

This part really caught my attention as it seems a lot of us that are/were drawn to smoking in the first place feel that we are self medicating something that nicotine seems to address:

In an e-mail message, this participant (G.) said she had never used smokeless tobacco and had never abused or been addicted to other substances. She had been diagnosed with depression after a severe traumatic stress and took antidepressants (paroxetine) for several years after that. She said: "I think the depression was a natural reaction to [the traumatic stress]. Nicotine was part of my self-medication during all this".

Which Jode, in an earlier post, seems to back up this statement. There are many on this forum that have the same experience.

As far as the MAOI's in tobacco, the liquid form that we use does not contain those. There are those that need the WTA (whole tobacco alkaloids) added (a few vendors offer WTA's). Some of our members are able to lower and finally cut out needing WTA.

I would be very cautious of deeming an article written by Rolygate as satire. He has done so much research and knows probably more than you do when it comes to e-cigarettes. He has been researching for many years and his knowledge base is immense. He is also the ECF Forum Manager.

 

[DC2]

To my knowledge here has never been a population out in the wild using nicotine for substantial periods of time outside of smoking (snuff users maybe?), and certainly not through inhalation, so I assume the evidence would have to come from studies.

Here are some to take a look at...
Growing List of Positive Effects of Nicotine Seen in Neurode... : Neurology Today

Obviously the results of small studies often aren't replicated in larger studies, but at least nicotine certainly looks safe. And we've seen absolutely no withdrawal symptoms. There doesn't seem to be any abuse liability whatsoever in taking nicotine by patch in non-smokers. That's reassuring.”

Nicotine treatment for ulcerative colitis

No withdrawal symptoms suggesting nicotine addiction have been reported either after 4–6 weeks of therapy in short-term studies, or after a period of up to 6 months in the only long-term study available.

Great Article on the Possible Health Benefits of Nicotine | E-Cigarette Forum

One of the most respected researchers in the field, Dr. Paul Newhouse, Director of Vanderbilt University’s Center for Cognitive Medicine, argues that nicotine “seems very safe even in nonsmokers. In our studies we find it actually reduces blood pressure chronically. And there were no addiction or withdrawal problems, and nobody started smoking cigarettes. The risk of addiction to nicotine alone is virtually nil.” Tobacco has also been considered harmful because it is highly addictive, but whether nicotine has the same addictive potential remains unclear. According to Dr. Newhouse, “nicotine by itself isn’t very addictive at all… [it] seems to require assistance from other substances found in tobacco to get people hooked.”

Cigarette smoking addiction/habit and pure nicotine addiction/habit are apples to oranges in my opinion and nobody can convince me otherwise.

There are many of us here that would never be convinced otherwise...
Because we've lived it, and we know it to be true for us, and for many others...

This is actually quite a fun discussion. I love to people watch. Learning how people create opinions is fascinating. Let me throw another article out for opinions.

Addiction to the nicotine gum in never smokers

I also love to people watch...

Results
Five never smokers used the nicotine gum daily. They had been using the nicotine gum for longer than the 429 ever smokers (median = 6 years vs 0.8 years, p = 0.004), and they had higher NDSS-gum Tolerance scores (median = 0.73 vs = -1.0, p = 0.03), a difference of 1.5 standard deviation units. Two never smokers had never used smokeless tobacco, both answered "extremely true" to: "I use nicotine gums because I am addicted to them", both "fully agreed" with: "after a few hours without chewing a nicotine gum, I feel an irresistible urge to chew one" and: "I am a prisoner of nicotine gum".

Conclusion
This is to our knowledge the first report of addiction to nicotine gum in never users of tobacco. However, this phenomenon is rare, and although the long-term effect of nicotine gum is unknown, this product is significantly less harmful than tobacco.

So FIVE never-smokers were used to draw the conclusions?
And the conclusion is that such a phenomenon is rare, being that it has never been seen before?

Or am I reading it wrong?

 

[Dr. Robert Cranfield]

Research Shows ....... And ...... Are Less Addictive Than Oreos

Dang. Word filter broke my link.

 

[awsum140]

Forbes is playing games with the internet and "copy and paste". Hmm I mentioned playing games with the internet a few posts back. Anyway I assume it was the "Study Shows Oreos are more Addicting than ....... or ......" article. (don't know if ECF will let those two words stand)

I assume this is the link and it explains why I still like Oreos after over 65 years of eating them, LOL.