About Low Resistance and Specific batteries
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Wow, get Drozd a motherloving beer or whatever he wants for ruling this thread.
For real.
I'm glad I was running Hoog's 2.5-ohm cartos on my 14500 mod, when I was using it. I've since graduated up to an 18650 and all's well there. Was gonna get some AW 18650 IMRs, but no need now.
lol thanks...
yeah there really is no need for the 18650 IMR...they really are kinda overkill... they're capable of something like 16A max drain... but worst case senario with a 1.5Ω atty you've got a 2.47A draw at 3.7V....
just about any of the 18650 will do... in that battery size it DOES become about mAh... since the sheer mAh of them warrants that the max drain of the battery will be higher than the amp draw...
Thanks LT, I've been thinking about trying those. Lately I've been spending my ecig budget on E2 and Joyetech cartos but I found a good deal on the Megas and want to get some.
Sorry Hoog, but I am really confused now.
I use the Riva and the eGo. My batteries are all about 4-5 months old with no failures to date. On Sept 7, I carefully read MadVape's descriptions for the L/R Cartomizers on site and bought a box of 2.5 and a box of 1.7 ohm cartomizers. I am positive that at that time, the descriptions for these Cartomizers clearly stated they were compatible with my Riva and eGo kits. I have been using both kinds for over a month with no problems, but now I'm afraid to use them (especially the 1.7 ohms) and especially with my eGo batts since they are less powerful than the Riva batts.
Can someone tell me if I should stop using the 1.7 or the 2.5 ohm cartomizers with these batteries? I'm gonna be real bummed if the answer is yes because I love the extra hit I get from these! (plus I've still got 4 of these which are new in the plastic).
Thanks
Rich
I use the Riva and the eGo. My batteries are all about 4-5 months old with no failures to date. On Sept 7, I carefully read MadVape's descriptions for the L/R Cartomizers on site and bought a box of 2.5 and a box of 1.7 ohm cartomizers. I am positive that at that time, the descriptions for these Cartomizers clearly stated they were compatible with my Riva and eGo kits. I have been using both kinds for over a month with no problems, but now I'm afraid to use them (especially the 1.7 ohms) and especially with my eGo batts since they are less powerful than the Riva batts.
Can someone tell me if I should stop using the 1.7 or the 2.5 ohm cartomizers with these batteries? I'm gonna be real bummed if the answer is yes because I love the extra hit I get from these! (plus I've still got 4 of these which are new in the plastic).
Thanks
Rich
I'd sum up what Hoog said as this:
"Opps we were wrong. We've seen enough failures of batteries like the eGo, Riva, Hello-16 when used with LR atomizers that we can no longer suggest their use with these type of batteries. LR atomizers are OK to use with high drain 16340, 14500 and 18650 batteries."
"Opps we were wrong. We've seen enough failures of batteries like the eGo, Riva, Hello-16 when used with LR atomizers that we can no longer suggest their use with these type of batteries. LR atomizers are OK to use with high drain 16340, 14500 and 18650 batteries."
So, I should stop using both the 1.7 ohm and the 2.5 ohm cartomizers with my Riva/eGo batts?
This is a key point that should not be overlooked. Discharge rate (amps) is dependent on capacity, so larger "low discharge" batteries should still be able to keep up with LR attys. The problem is that few batteries actually have C ratings, and even the ones that do may not be accurate. The candlepower guys are pretty neurotic about testing battery ratings/capacities, so perhaps somebody could find some real world numbers over there to see what can and can't really handle LR attys. Failing that, like Drozd said, you can't go wrong with AW IMR cells.
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2.5Ω is actually in line with what the resistance for a standard joye 510 atty is at 2.2Ω +/- .3Ω .....so I'd want to say to you that yeah those would be ok....
but let me be clear.....what I was getting at is that all atties and cartos will eventually cause failure in ALL stock batteries....it's just recognizing that and accepting that...just that the low resistance atties and cartos at 1.5Ω, 1.7Ω, 1.8Ω are going to do it quicker because the mosfet in the battery switch just isnt capable of handling the increased amp demand without degrading or burning out eventually...
would I still use them....yeah you bet....would I use them if it was my only battery and atty....no....I'd make sure I had at least one back up....and if my battery suddenly died with a LR atty on it...I wouldn't put it on another to try it out without testing it first...
this ones fairly easy from digging around a bit....
battery university says that to assume a C rating of 1C on generic Li-Ion batteries unles otherwise indicated...
ultra/trust/sure fire have a 1.5C rating
AW have a 2C rating
Tenergy LiFePo4 just state their max drain as being < .55A
AW LiFePo4 have a 10C rating
AW IMR 14500 and 16340 have a 8C rating
AW IMR 18650 have a 10C rating
BDL IMR 14500 have a 5C rating
BDL IMR 10440 have a 3C rating
so max drain being the mAh rating (in Amps) times the C rate ......
and amp draw being voltage divided by resistance....
like I've said the ONLY 3 capable of handling anything below say 2.5Ω with no problems are any 18650, AW IMR 14500, and AW IMR 16340 .......everything else will present at some point as the amp draw exceeding the max drain....well the BDL 14500 are close...too close for my comfort but technically maintain a max drain greater than amp draw but by less than .4A
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I have a Joye 510. Should I be avoiding LR atties and cartos with this device?
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You can use it but it's just gonna over stress your Batt and shorten the lifespan of it
Ya I figured that would happen when I bought it. If its less resistance the battery is working harder therefore is going to die quicker. I thought that was pretty common sense. Is there some exponential value that I'm unaware of?
This whole thread has been about the electronics in the ecig 'battery.' Those are the component that gets overstressed by LR atomizers and cartos and dies. So even if the LiOn cell inside the battery is still good with the electronics dead the 'battery' is dead. Which is why you really only want to use LR with high drain 14500 or 16340 or any 18650 in a mod that's basically LiOn cell, switch and atomizer and not with any of the Chinese designed products, i.e. do not try 510, 901, 808, eGo, Riva, Hello-016 and so on.
Hi...
Lots of good info here... lot of it while completely true... is off point.
1) - Placing a load greater than the maximum drain rate (mah x C) shortens the life of a Lithium cell regardless of its specific chemistry. The symptom of this type of damage is a reduced capacity over time... it gradually will no longer hold as big of a charge.
2) - Placing a dead short will cause an unprotected cell to overheat. This could be very bad... You might compare it to sucking on a stick of tnt. There are many horror stories on the net about lithium cells exploding. The overheating causes them to build up very high pressure hydrogen gas. If the cell does not explode, it will be damaged to the point where it no longer produces enough current to operate the atty. Unprotected cell + dead short = bad situation!
3) - Factory made ecig batteries do not ever actually turn off. They use a type of power transistor called a MOSFET as an electronic switch. In trying to keep costs as low as possible to be competitive, factories use a MOSFET that is JUST BIG ENOUGH. You can kill the MOSFET slowly over a period of time by stressing it beyond its designed capacity using LR atty/cartos, or kill it instantly by stressing it WAY BEYOND its capacity.
4) - When a MOSFET dies, it either is permanently off or it is permanently on. If it decides to die in the on state, and you do not notice the atty/carto frying like bacon... it will overheat the lithium cell with possible bad outcome... see above.
I would NEVER use an atty/carto under 2 ohms on a factory battery of any brand or size. The risk is not worth the reward to me.
Use LR atty/cartos only on mods with standard lithium cells... only use protected cells... ALWAYS turn the mod off when not puffing on it! If you use a smaller cell beyond it maximum drain rating... all you will do is not reap the full benefit, and you will get a shorter cell life.
I buy the cheaper brands... not the AW. I can buy 4 cells sure/trust/ultra fire from Hong Kong on EBAY for the price of 1 AW... or less. The combined life of 4 of these lesser quality cells is longer than the life of one AW. But then... I am dutch... really, not just a tight wad.
Lots of good info here... lot of it while completely true... is off point.
1) - Placing a load greater than the maximum drain rate (mah x C) shortens the life of a Lithium cell regardless of its specific chemistry. The symptom of this type of damage is a reduced capacity over time... it gradually will no longer hold as big of a charge.
2) - Placing a dead short will cause an unprotected cell to overheat. This could be very bad... You might compare it to sucking on a stick of tnt. There are many horror stories on the net about lithium cells exploding. The overheating causes them to build up very high pressure hydrogen gas. If the cell does not explode, it will be damaged to the point where it no longer produces enough current to operate the atty. Unprotected cell + dead short = bad situation!
3) - Factory made ecig batteries do not ever actually turn off. They use a type of power transistor called a MOSFET as an electronic switch. In trying to keep costs as low as possible to be competitive, factories use a MOSFET that is JUST BIG ENOUGH. You can kill the MOSFET slowly over a period of time by stressing it beyond its designed capacity using LR atty/cartos, or kill it instantly by stressing it WAY BEYOND its capacity.
4) - When a MOSFET dies, it either is permanently off or it is permanently on. If it decides to die in the on state, and you do not notice the atty/carto frying like bacon... it will overheat the lithium cell with possible bad outcome... see above.
I would NEVER use an atty/carto under 2 ohms on a factory battery of any brand or size. The risk is not worth the reward to me.
Use LR atty/cartos only on mods with standard lithium cells... only use protected cells... ALWAYS turn the mod off when not puffing on it! If you use a smaller cell beyond it maximum drain rating... all you will do is not reap the full benefit, and you will get a shorter cell life.
I buy the cheaper brands... not the AW. I can buy 4 cells sure/trust/ultra fire from Hong Kong on EBAY for the price of 1 AW... or less. The combined life of 4 of these lesser quality cells is longer than the life of one AW. But then... I am dutch... really, not just a tight wad.
Hi...
Lots of good info here... lot of it while completely true... is off point.
1) - Placing a load greater than the maximum drain rate (mah x C) shortens the life of a Lithium cell regardless of its specific chemistry. The symptom of this type of damage is a reduced capacity over time... it gradually will no longer hold as big of a charge.
2) - Placing a dead short will cause an unprotected cell to overheat. This could be very bad... You might compare it to sucking on a stick of tnt. There are many horror stories on the net about lithium cells exploding. The overheating causes them to build up very high pressure hydrogen gas. If the cell does not explode, it will be damaged to the point where it no longer produces enough current to operate the atty. Unprotected cell + dead short = bad situation!
3) - Factory made ecig batteries do not ever actually turn off. They use a type of power transistor called a MOSFET as an electronic switch. In trying to keep costs as low as possible to be competitive, factories use a MOSFET that is JUST BIG ENOUGH. You can kill the MOSFET slowly over a period of time by stressing it beyond its designed capacity using LR atty/cartos, or kill it instantly by stressing it WAY BEYOND its capacity.
4) - When a MOSFET dies, it either is permanently off or it is permanently on. If it decides to die in the on state, and you do not notice the atty/carto frying like bacon... it will overheat the lithium cell with possible bad outcome... see above.
I would NEVER use an atty/carto under 2 ohms on a factory battery of any brand or size. The risk is not worth the reward to me.
Use LR atty/cartos only on mods with standard lithium cells... only use protected cells... ALWAYS turn the mod off when not puffing on it! If you use a smaller cell beyond it maximum drain rating... all you will do is not reap the full benefit, and you will get a shorter cell life.
I buy the cheaper brands... not the AW. I can buy 4 cells sure/trust/ultra fire from Hong Kong on EBAY for the price of 1 AW... or less. The combined life of 4 of these lesser quality cells is longer than the life of one AW. But then... I am dutch... really, not just a tight wad.
Maybe its just me, but this isn't making much sense...
For what it's worth, recently started using a 1.8ohm cartomizer (thanks Zen~) on a MadVapes parts 3AA box mod I built with 2 Trustfire 14500's in parallel. I've also been using 2.5 ohm atties for a while. No issues what-so-ever since this device is not electronically switched (no weak MOSFET controller). I use heavy gauge wiring and a big 5amp switch. Low resistance is great, just be aware of what you're using them on. You could pull a 27 foot cabin cruiser with a Dodge Neon but not for very long. You need a bigger power supply, like a 1/2 ton truck.
Some clarification for the e-cig users that are not engineers...
THIS is a battery; (Below)
This is an electronic cigarette power supply: (Below)
A lot of people call the power supply unit for their 510, 901, 808, eGo, etc. e-cig a "battery" and it's not a battery at all... it CONTAINS a battery... and a switch, and an LED.
In an e-cig power supply unit, the switch is a micro switch which is triggering a mosfet, which then delivers the voltage and current to the connector, firing the Atty/Carto. You don't need to know what a mosfet is, or how it works... you just need to be aware that it's in there.
In these "factory made" devices the mosfet cannot handle the load which is placed on it when used with a LR Atty/Carto, and the mosfet will fail, and has been stated, it's going to fail either in the OPEN or CLOSED position... If it fails in the OPEN position, it simply will never work again... if it fails in the closed position, it will fire the atty/carto until either the Atty/Carto burns up, or the battery explodes. Most, but not all, failures happen in the open state which is harmless.
When it fails to work, people tend to say the "battery is dead", when in fact the battery which is inside the device is probably perfectly fine...but the e-cig power supply unit has been rendered useless by the bad mosfet.
On the other hand, MODs use discreet batteries and higher current switches. An LR atty/carto doesn't present the same threat to the switch. Yes there are limitations as to the size of the battery you can use before damaging the actual battery itself, but for the purpose of Hoogies warning, this thread isn't so much about that issue...
SO... which units have mosfets, and which units are most likely going to fail when used with LR Atty/Cartos?
Pretty much everything that people start out with that looks like a cigarette in form has a mosfet, as do eGo's and all variants, Hello 16's, Screwdrivers, Sticks, 905's etc.
Here is a partial list (not exhaustive by any means)of devices that should not be used with LR Attys/cartos
510/5xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
302/3xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
901/9xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
808/8xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
eGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
vGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
Riva (all varieties and manufacturers)
Tornado (all varieties and manufacturers)
Titan (all varieties and manufacturers)
Hello 016 (all varieties and manufacturers)
Sticks (all varieties and manufacturers)
Pretty much everything else made by or branded by Joye, nJoy, Janty, Totally Wicked, East Mall, (except the indulgence, which has a replaceable switch) Boge, Bauman... heck... all of them actually.
If it started life as an e-cig, and not a "mod", you shouldn't use anything LR with it.
I hope this helps.
THIS is a battery; (Below)
This is an electronic cigarette power supply: (Below)
A lot of people call the power supply unit for their 510, 901, 808, eGo, etc. e-cig a "battery" and it's not a battery at all... it CONTAINS a battery... and a switch, and an LED.
In an e-cig power supply unit, the switch is a micro switch which is triggering a mosfet, which then delivers the voltage and current to the connector, firing the Atty/Carto. You don't need to know what a mosfet is, or how it works... you just need to be aware that it's in there.
In these "factory made" devices the mosfet cannot handle the load which is placed on it when used with a LR Atty/Carto, and the mosfet will fail, and has been stated, it's going to fail either in the OPEN or CLOSED position... If it fails in the OPEN position, it simply will never work again... if it fails in the closed position, it will fire the atty/carto until either the Atty/Carto burns up, or the battery explodes. Most, but not all, failures happen in the open state which is harmless.
When it fails to work, people tend to say the "battery is dead", when in fact the battery which is inside the device is probably perfectly fine...but the e-cig power supply unit has been rendered useless by the bad mosfet.
On the other hand, MODs use discreet batteries and higher current switches. An LR atty/carto doesn't present the same threat to the switch. Yes there are limitations as to the size of the battery you can use before damaging the actual battery itself, but for the purpose of Hoogies warning, this thread isn't so much about that issue...
SO... which units have mosfets, and which units are most likely going to fail when used with LR Atty/Cartos?
Pretty much everything that people start out with that looks like a cigarette in form has a mosfet, as do eGo's and all variants, Hello 16's, Screwdrivers, Sticks, 905's etc.
Here is a partial list (not exhaustive by any means)of devices that should not be used with LR Attys/cartos
510/5xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
302/3xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
901/9xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
808/8xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
eGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
vGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
Riva (all varieties and manufacturers)
Tornado (all varieties and manufacturers)
Titan (all varieties and manufacturers)
Hello 016 (all varieties and manufacturers)
Sticks (all varieties and manufacturers)
Pretty much everything else made by or branded by Joye, nJoy, Janty, Totally Wicked, East Mall, (except the indulgence, which has a replaceable switch) Boge, Bauman... heck... all of them actually.
If it started life as an e-cig, and not a "mod", you shouldn't use anything LR with it.
I hope this helps.
Zen I totally agree with what you said here and with Hoog, All the way,,,,, But I would like to know if anyone has had an Ego/Riva/Hello/ any of the batts listed Blow up ? I have seen it with stacked Batts in a Mod but I haven't heard of anyone having an Egp/Riva ++++ blow up yet, has it happen?? if so do you have a picture or proof of the Batt venting ??? I would find it hard to beleive that all of these companies would be taking the chance of an explosion or massive venting situation and still be selling LR Atty's along with these Batts and not some huge warning on there websites, and like I said I agree with you guys about the stressing of Batts with LR Atts and them drawing to much but I just haven't seen one of these batts we are discussing blowing up or exploding and would like to see a picture or proof of it happening !
they (eGos/rivas/hello 16s) aren't tending to blow up.... rather the mosfet in them is just frying...they can't handle the increased amp draw of the LR atty...so they're just degrading and frying...so how long they're lasting is a total crapshoot to top it off...
so technically if you were capable of replacing the mosfet you could keep using them until the amp draw permanently kills them
I haven't seen an eGo power unit vent, nor have I specifically heard of it happening... I do know that it CAN happen if by some chance all of the factors happen to align.
I DO know of eGo power units failing on LR atty/cartos... Just today I ditched a 510 power unit that I was using with a LR Carto... which by the way, I use LR Cartos on 510's all the time... I just don't plan on blaming Totally Wicked when the mosfet pops, nor will I blame the guy that sold me the carto... I am well aware of the risk!
I DO know of eGo power units failing on LR atty/cartos... Just today I ditched a 510 power unit that I was using with a LR Carto... which by the way, I use LR Cartos on 510's all the time... I just don't plan on blaming Totally Wicked when the mosfet pops, nor will I blame the guy that sold me the carto... I am well aware of the risk!
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