About Low Resistance and Specific batteries

[guitardedmark]

Some clarification for the e-cig users that are not engineers...

THIS is a battery; (Below)

This is an electronic cigarette power supply: (Below)

A lot of people call the power supply unit for their 510, 901, 808, eGo, etc. e-cig a "battery" and it's not a battery at all... it CONTAINS a battery... and a switch, and an LED.

In an e-cig power supply unit, the switch is a micro switch which is triggering a mosfet, which then delivers the voltage and current to the connector, firing the Atty/Carto. You don't need to know what a mosfet is, or how it works... you just need to be aware that it's in there.

In these "factory made" devices the mosfet cannot handle the load which is placed on it when used with a LR Atty/Carto, and the mosfet will fail, and has been stated, it's going to fail either in the OPEN or CLOSED position... If it fails in the OPEN position, it simply will never work again... if it fails in the closed position, it will fire the atty/carto until either the Atty/Carto burns up, or the battery explodes. Most, but not all, failures happen in the open state which is harmless.

When it fails to work, people tend to say the "battery is dead", when in fact the battery which is inside the device is probably perfectly fine...but the e-cig power supply unit has been rendered useless by the bad mosfet.

On the other hand, MODs use discreet batteries and higher current switches. An LR atty/carto doesn't present the same threat to the switch. Yes there are limitations as to the size of the battery you can use before damaging the actual battery itself, but for the purpose of Hoogies warning, this thread isn't so much about that issue...

SO... which units have mosfets, and which units are most likely going to fail when used with LR Atty/Cartos?

Pretty much everything that people start out with that looks like a cigarette in form has a mosfet, as do eGo's and all variants, Hello 16's, Screwdrivers, Sticks, 905's etc.

Here is a partial list (not exhaustive by any means)of devices that should not be used with LR Attys/cartos

510/5xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
302/3xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
901/9xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
808/8xx (all varieties and manufacturers)
eGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
vGo (all varieties and manufacturers)
Riva (all varieties and manufacturers)
Tornado (all varieties and manufacturers)
Titan (all varieties and manufacturers)
Hello 016 (all varieties and manufacturers)
Sticks (all varieties and manufacturers)
Pretty much everything else made by or branded by Joye, njoy, Janty, Totally Wicked, East Mall, (except the indulgence, which has a replaceable switch) Boge, Bauman... heck... all of them actually.

If it started life as an e-cig, and not a "mod", you shouldn't use anything LR with it.

I hope this helps.

WOW ZEN!!! What a helpful post!

 

[Drozd]

I haven't seen an eGo power unit vent, nor have I specifically heard of it happening... I do know that it CAN happen if by some chance all of the factors happen to align.

I DO know of eGo power units failing on LR atty/cartos... Just today I ditched a 510 power unit that I was using with a LR Carto... which by the way, I use LR Cartos on 510's all the time... I just don't plan on blaming Totally Wicked when the mosfet pops, nor will I blame the guy that sold me the carto... I am well aware of the risk!

that really was my point in all this... I think that vendors should make users aware of the risk...and then let them make that informed choice...while the ego kits that are sold with LR atties/cartos are nice and all that really should be an advanced choice that users have to make...

 

[WillyB]

for those that still dont get it the LR draws 2amps the reg Atty draws 1 amp these mosfet Batts are being over stressed with the 2amp draw, will they still work, heck ya, but they are being over stressed with the 2 amp draw compared to the 1 amp draw, therefor they will not last as long as say an 18650 IMR Batt.

Well I get it and your information is incorrect. 1A won't even fire a Joye 510.

the LR draws 2amps

2A with a Joye LR510 is a rather anemic vaping experience, an 18650 with a standard Joye 510 will give you (dissipate) more watts (heat/power).

 

[CadillacJack]

Well I get it and your information is incorrect. 1A won't even fire a Joye 510.


2A with a Joye LR510 is a rather anemic vaping experience, an 18650 with a standard Joye 510 will give you (dissipate) more watts (heat/power).

Relevant Equations: E=I*R and P=E*I where E = volts, I = amps, R = ohms, and P = watts.

Standard Joye e-cig power supply = 3.0 to 3.1 volts
Standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms

Solve for I: 3.1 / 2.2 = 1.36 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 1.36 = 4.216 watts

LR atty = 1.5 ohms
Solve for I: 3.1 / 1.5 = 2.06 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 2.06= 6.386 watts

Standard 18650 = 3.7 volts with standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms
Solve for I: 3.7 / 2.2 = 1.68 amps
Solve for P: 3.7 * 1.68 = 6.216 watts

Applying Ohms Law and some arithmetic. If I got something wrong here, please let me know.

 

[Stu65]

Hey CadillacJack, nice work. The only problem I see is that you stated the first equation incorrectly. E=I*R. Again nice job.

 

[WillyB]

Relevant Equations: E=I/R and P=EI where E = volts, I = amps, R = ohms, and P = watts.

Standard Joye e-cig power supply = 3.0 to 3.1 volts
Standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms

Solve for I: 3.1 / 2.2 = 1.36 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 1.36 = 4.216 watts

LR atty = 1.5 ohms
Solve for I: 3.1 / 1.5 = 2.06 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 2.06= 6.386 watts

Standard 18650 = 3.7 volts with standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms
Solve for I: 3.7 / 2.2 = 1.68 amps
Solve for P: 3.7 * 1.68 = 6.216 watts

Applying Ohms Law and some arithmetic. If I got something wrong here, please let me know.

Close enough, but in the real world a decent 18650 can do better than 3.7V.

Here's a loaded voltage test with a Joye 510 (2.1Ω) and a freshly charged standard AW Li-Ion.

So in the above example we are actually seeing 7.06W instead of 6.22W. That's a 13% increase in watts.


Here's a 3.2Ω carto and a UF 3000mAh 18650.

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

Any of you electronics geeks, like me, find it amusing to see that Harbor Freight multimeter posted next to an HP3478A? LOL

 

[CadillacJack]

Hey...That's my flashlight mod! I guess red is a popular color.

 

[CadillacJack]

Any of you electronics geeks, like me, find it amusing to see that Harbor Freight multimeter posted next to an HP3478A? LOL

I have that same cheapo MM. Saves wear and tear on my Fluke.

 

[Drozd]

Relevant Equations: E=I/R and P=EI where E = volts, I = amps, R = ohms, and P = watts.

Standard Joye e-cig power supply = 3.0 to 3.1 volts
Standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms

Solve for I: 3.1 / 2.2 = 1.36 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 1.36 = 4.216 watts

LR atty = 1.5 ohms
Solve for I: 3.1 / 1.5 = 2.06 amps
Solve for P: 3.1 * 2.06= 6.386 watts

Standard 18650 = 3.7 volts with standard Joye atty = 2.2 ohms
Solve for I: 3.7 / 2.2 = 1.68 amps
Solve for P: 3.7 * 1.68 = 6.216 watts

Applying Ohms Law and some arithmetic. If I got something wrong here, please let me know.

you're also forgetting to factor in for voltage sag on a stock battery (and it does sag)...
since we can assume that the C rate on a standard no name generic Li-Ion cell is 1C...
that puts the max drain rate of even a 1000mAh eGo battery at 1.0A
and since you're trying to draw 1.36A from it...
the voltage has to sag to bring the amp draw and the battery's max drain in line...

versus that 18650 (which I'm going to use the AW 2600mAh one for example)
we know that the C rate on AW Li-Ion cells are 2C
which puts the max drain rate at 5.2A...
much higher than what either the standard joye atty or the LR atty amp draw and no voltage sag...
so the full 6.22W out of the standard joye and the 9.14W out of the LR...

yes a LR510 at 3.1V IS fractionally more heat (6.41W) than a standard joye atty on a 3.7V device (6.22W) ...but purely on ohms law....but if you take into account for the voltage sag, not so much

*by the way I use different equations apparently so there's discrepencies in our math
Amps = Voltage/resistance
Watts= Voltage (squared) /resistance
max drain rate = mAh rating (in amps) * C rating

 

[CadillacJack]

you're also forgetting to factor in for voltage sag on a stock battery (and it does sag)...
since we can assume that the C rate on a standard no name generic Li-Ion cell is 1C...
that puts the max drain rate of even a 1000mAh eGo battery at 1.0A
and since you're trying to draw 1.36A from it...
the voltage has to sag to bring the amp draw and the battery's max drain in line...

versus that 18650 (which I'm going to use the AW 2600mAh one for example)
we know that the C rate on AW Li-Ion cells are 2C
which puts the max drain rate at 5.2A...
much higher than what either the standard joye atty or the LR atty amp draw and no voltage sag...
so the full 6.22W out of the standard joye and the 9.14W out of the LR...

yes a LR510 at 3.1V IS fractionally more heat (6.41W) than a standard joye atty on a 3.7V device (6.22W) ...but purely on ohms law....but if you take into account for the voltage sag, not so much

*by the way I use different equations apparently so there's discrepencies in our math
Amps = Voltage/resistance
Watts= Voltage (squared) /resistance
max drain rate = mAh rating (in amps) * C rating

Sorry... had a typo in the ohms law equation. It is fixed now.

About sag... The Joye battery has a regulator in it to keep voltage (and thus current) nearly constant over the discharge cycle. That is what accounts for the 3.0 - 3.1 volt output. If you put it on your scope you can see the PWM wave form. That also means the only accurate way to measure the voltage under load is on a scope.

Bottom line is that I totally agree that the 18650 is clearly the best choice for LR atty usage.

I use my own atty coils. 34 gauge nichrome @ 2.0 ohm. Fully charged Ultrafire 18650 reads 4.08 volt. I swap it out with a fresh one at 3.75 volts. I am hooked on blowing out a cloud of vapor that you can't see through.

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

I have that same cheapo MM. Saves wear and tear on my Fluke.

Exactly! I have the same one (in red) in my "mobile lab kit". Can't beat that coupon deal. $2.49 for a DMM...LOL

 

[bsoplinger]

I spent 3.49 for each of the 3 I got because I find the backlight handy and it was only half a buck more. They are scattered about my place here because they're handy and so cheap if I drop or step on and break or in any way ruin a meter I just wait for the next sale to replace it.

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

It's funny, I sat and stared at that backlit unit and couldn't justify the cost difference in my ridiculous OCD brain...LOL.

 

[mwa102464]

OK guys I'm no electrical engineer that's for sure, but why would they be using this Mosfit Batt style instead of a small IMR Batt to make these EGO/Riva type Batts. I was wondering when someone would come out with an AW2900 or even the IMR1600 orange Batt as something like an Ego/Riva, how hard would this be to have a similar switch, Atty connector, + - Ground connection and make the same style Batt as these Ego/Riva's with a thin wall metal wrap around these AW type IMR batts. Excuse me if my question is stupid but it just doesn't make much sense to me why theY wouldn't produce this style of Ego/Riva Batt using a high quality AW IMR biggest mAh Batt they could use, is it simply because they want them to Die.? so people have to repurchase, I would love to have this AW/Ego type of Batt in and 18650 or even 17670 size, someone explain please if there is a logical answer????

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

To put it in seriously simple terms "What's the cheapest ecig I can get that's not complete crap?". That's the general consensus when it comes to making sales. Companies have to come to a happy medium between quality and cost to remain in business. This does not include the high dollar" mods" (which aren't "mods" at all since they're purpose built and not modified from anything at all to begin with. But anyway, this is nothing new. Our daily drivers (most of us anyway) don't have suede leather headliners or gold plated trim on hand crafted burlwood. Why? Because we (the majority) wont pay for it.

 

[mwa102464]

There is however a market of people I believe and me being one of them that would buy these AW Ego type Batts and I would bet someone must be considering making something like this, heck so a good AW is about $15-20 bucks, that Batt being the expensive part and the wrap and the switches are the cheap part , it couldn't cost more then $40 to have this retail I would think and I for one would love and AW/Ego Style Batt, I fully understand your point though JonnyV but there is a class of people that would buy the more expensive higher quality, heck Rolls Royce and Ferrari are still building and selling cars, point proven, Someone needs to speak with one of the Chinese manufacturers and ask them and negotiate price and build this Batt it would be an awesome Batt in my opinion to have the new AW2900 or the Highest IMR which I think is the 1600 in an AW/Ego type ecig

 

[Zen~]

mwa, thats sort of like asking why Kia doesn't put Ferrari engines in the Sportage...

Eastmall makes the Indulgence to fit the bill for the guys that choose to not spend the money on the bigger bucks, USA made stuff.

The class of folks that will buy the higher priced stuff still will. And some will buy both, as is evidenced by your avatar. If I was looking for an eGo sized device with a quality battery in it, I would get an Icon, a used Protoge' (I did that, actually) or one of the smaller Precise models... The Indulgence is probably the closest thing to an Asian answer to what you have proposed.... and it just seems like a cheap substitute on so many levels.

BUT... The Original Post that started all this of still is important... We can surmise all day and all night about what motivates an Asian manufacturer, but no matter what we gather together in this collective brain-trust, one fact remains the same: the devices fitted with Mosfet switching are prone to failure, and Hoogie was being a great supplier in bringing this to the attention of those that are less informed, or don't have the interest or expertise in electronics to sort it all out.

Oh, and the more people that read this, the fewer folks that will buy LR attys or cartos... THAT can't be good for business... so lets give the hoog-meister a big hand for putting on his big boy pants and bringing all of this all to our attention... he could have remained silent and laughed all the way to the bank as his customers were popping eGo and 510 power units.

I really enjoy LR Cartos on 510's and eGos... will they pop? Some already have... today it happened to me, and I'm sure it will happen again... If it does it does... I know the issues and the risk involved... but I never purchased a 510 battery and expected it to last long enough to become a family heirloom.

 

[needtoknow]

Hi...


3) - Factory made ecig batteries do not ever actually turn off. They use a type of power transistor called a MOSFET as an electronic switch. In trying to keep costs as low as possible to be competitive, factories use a MOSFET that is JUST BIG ENOUGH. You can kill the MOSFET slowly over a period of time by stressing it beyond its designed capacity using LR atty/cartos, or kill it instantly by stressing it WAY BEYOND its capacity.

4) - When a MOSFET dies, it either is permanently off or it is permanently on. If it decides to die in the on state, and you do not notice the atty/carto frying like bacon... it will overheat the lithium cell with possible bad outcome... see above.

.

perfect thread for me to read, but I think I was a couple of days too late, I have a 016 that I was using both reg and LR attys on it, yesterday I went to charge it like normal and when I took it off the charge and put an atty on it, it started blinking right away, when I take the atty off and press the button it stays on, either way it does not fire up the attys anymore. Is this what happend to me, and the battery I so love is now trash???? I do love dripping on the LR attys and that is what seems to keep me off the cigs, I also love doing buisiness with madvapes, they have been great. What do you suggest I do as I am very tight on funds also????

 

[Drozd]

perfect thread for me to read, but I think I was a couple of days too late, I have a 016 that I was using both reg and LR attys on it, yesterday I went to charge it like normal and when I took it off the charge and put an atty on it, it started blinking right away, when I take the atty off and press the button it stays on, either way it does not fire up the attys anymore. Is this what happend to me, and the battery I so love is now trash???? I do love dripping on the LR attys and that is what seems to keep me off the cigs, I also love doing buisiness with madvapes, they have been great. What do you suggest I do as I am very tight on funds also????

make one of their box mods...heck the kit is only $8 and is predrilled so you only need basic solder skills (technically not even that since they now have wire glue) .....fit that with a AW IMR 14500 (or a cheaper *fire 14500 til you can afford the AW)...cheap and improved performance...