Addicted to nicotine or tech? E-cigs an accessory, not a solution

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Hydroscopic

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Of course a collegiate opinion piece.

Addicted to nicotine or tech? E-cigs an accessory, not a solution via Pitt News
http://www.pittnews.com/opinions/article_b45c1af8-fe74-11e4-91d9-77ceed2940f1.html
I wrote up a whole long post with jokes and then I decided to stop and wait for a better time to reply. Normally I could over look this opinion piece and not post it except it was in the top five 'news' results this morning.

Beyond it just being clickbait: Why are non-smokers writing articles from the perspective of smokers?​
Seriously. How is this a thing?
FTA/From The Article said:
Electronic smoking devices are convenient and supposedly a safer alternative to smoking, but in reality, most smokers just use both.

Actually in reality, most do not partake in long-term dual use.
  1. Many smokers believe the anti-vaping hype that it is worse for them and they take a vehement hard line stance against vaping. Or they feel the devices found behind the counter in places like 7-11 as mentioned, lack in delivery and stick to their combustible mainstays.
  2. Many that switch from smoking to vaping with dual use usually become vapers and ditch the cigarettes after finding benefits. After that point a good number of converts take a hard line against smoking.
In fact simple asking of both groups, even if only small samples of true members from each side, would have clearly outlined the absolute polarization in perspectives.
 

caramel

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I'm getting really tired of seeing the "most use both" tripe. I'm not sure if they're just making this up, or if they are only counting BT cigalikes (which would make using both understandable, since the cigalikes are NOT satisfying at all!!)

Antz accounting. If you ever bummed a cig during the past year, just one, they will count you as "dual user".

Pretty much like "smoking related deaths". If you ever bummed one during your life, they'll record your cause of death as "smoking".
 

nicnik

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Of course a collegiate opinion piece.

Addicted to nicotine or tech? E-cigs an accessory, not a solution via Pitt News
http://www.pittnews.com/opinions/article_b45c1af8-fe74-11e4-91d9-77ceed2940f1.html
I wrote up a whole long post with jokes and then I decided to stop and wait for a better time to reply. Normally I could over look this opinion piece and not post it except it was in the top five 'news' results this morning.

Beyond it just being clickbait: Why are non-smokers writing articles from the perspective of smokers?​
Seriously. How is this a thing?


Actually in reality, most do not partake in long-term dual use.
  1. Many smokers believe the anti-vaping hype that it is worse for them and they take a vehement hard line stance against vaping. Or they feel the devices found behind the counter in places like 7-11 as mentioned, lack in delivery and stick to their combustible mainstays.
  2. Many that switch from smoking to vaping with dual use usually become vapers and ditch the cigarettes after finding benefits. After that point a good number of converts take a hard line against smoking.
In fact simple asking of both groups, even if only small samples of true members from each side, would have clearly outlined the absolute polarization in perspectives.

The author belittles vapers as blind followers of the latest tech trend, while he/she mindlessly jumps in on the latest dishonest ANTZ angle - ecigs = dual use. A very trendy article. And ugly, if I may say so.
 

CarolT

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Please refresh my memory. What is the source of this claim: "Many smokers believe the anti-vaping hype that it is worse for them and they take a vehement hard line stance against vaping." Many thanks.

Also, there's a contingent you left out: Smokers who vape only when and where they're not allowed to smoke. They're unlikely to be hard line either way.
 

CarolT

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Pretty much like "smoking related deaths". If you ever bummed one during your life, they'll record your cause of death as "smoking".

No, "smoking related deaths" do not come from individual data. They're computed (by the CDC's SAMMEC software), based on odds ratios from the American Cancer Society's CPS studies. Then the user fills in the total number of deaths from each disease, and the proportion of smokers in the population.
 

caramel

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Dec 23, 2014
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No, "smoking related deaths" do not come from individual data. They're computed (by the CDC's SAMMEC software), based on odds ratios from the American Cancer Society's CPS studies. Then the user fills in the total number of deaths from each disease, and the proportion of smokers in the population.

This sounds like a complete fraud......
 
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Hydroscopic

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I'm getting really tired of seeing the "most use both" tripe. I'm not sure if they're just making this up, or if they are only counting BT cigalikes (which would make using both understandable, since the cigalikes are NOT satisfying at all!!)
I said many and not "all" in my reply because there is a margin of error. Several people started as dual users. Some have the right set up and stop immediately. Others ease into replacing. Some dual use until they find their nic level, better equipment or both. That is why it might take one person a day and someone else a month or more. Same reason it might take more than one try.

The author wrote that they basically witnessed a man double fisting with dual use. Cigalike in one hand, pack of cigarettes in the other and alternating. Then stated that was the reality of e-cigarettes.
  • Trying a cigalike one day and a smoke later on or the next? Plausible. Especially if new.
  • Alternating both in one instance? Not impossible, just incredibly unlikely.
Some are considered 'dual users' when vapers smoke on rare occasions or a smoker vapes when they can't smoke. I know of "non-smokers" that once every few months/years have a cigar/cigarette. They are still non-smokers and classified as such. Same logic applies when making comparisons.

It isn't "made up". Long term dual users are rare. They do exist. Community-wise a dual user should be welcome. Dual users should be aware of the potential problems.

Dual use escalates the BT, BP and ANTZ fight.
  • ANTZ argue dual for tax and regulation like smoking.
  • ANTZ will attribute smoking illnesses and deaths to vaping. (CDC "Kristy" poster.)
  • Propaganda will deter smokers from looking to switch. (BT & BP Profit.)
  • If dual use is common then the devices aren't capable of being used for cessation.
Etc...

Someone should challenge the 'dual use' by highlighting those that use the gum when they cannot smoke. Of course that would highlight that the gum is also potentially addictive and not effective as a cessation method.
 

AndriaD

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Then there are some who start vaping *intending* to be dual users -- only vaping where one can't smoke -- but ended up switching entirely, at their own pace. That, to me, is by far the best thing about quitting via e-cigs: it doesn't demand an initial 100% determination or commitment, either volitionally or financially. Vaping makes its value known as one continues doing it, to the point that it finally just edges smoking right out of the picture, with little to no stress. That's freaking marvelous! :thumb:

Andria
 

KattMamma

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I said many and not "all" in my reply because there is a margin of error. Several people started as dual users. Some have the right set up and stop immediately. Others ease into replacing. Some dual use until they find their nic level, better equipment or both. That is why it might take one person a day and someone else a month or more. Same reason it might take more than one try.

The author wrote that they basically witnessed a man double fisting with dual use. Cigalike in one hand, pack of cigarettes in the other and alternating. Then stated that was the reality of e-cigarettes.
  • Trying a cigalike one day and a smoke later on or the next? Plausible. Especially if new.
  • Alternating both in one instance? Not impossible, just incredibly unlikely.
Some are considered 'dual users' when vapers smoke on rare occasions or a smoker vapes when they can't smoke. I know of "non-smokers" that once every few months/years have a cigar/cigarette. They are still non-smokers and classified as such. Same logic applies when making comparisons.

It isn't "made up". Long term dual users are rare. They do exist. Community-wise a dual user should be welcome. Dual users should be aware of the potential problems.

Dual use escalates the BT, BP and ANTZ fight.
  • ANTZ argue dual for tax and regulation like smoking.
  • ANTZ will attribute smoking illnesses and deaths to vaping. (CDC "Kristy" poster.)
  • Propaganda will deter smokers from looking to switch. (BT & BP Profit.)
  • If dual use is common then the devices aren't capable of being used for cessation.
Etc...

Someone should challenge the 'dual use' by highlighting those that use the gum when they cannot smoke. Of course that would highlight that the gum is also potentially addictive and not effective as a cessation method.

To clarify, I wasn't challenging you - I was challenging the statement in the article "most smokers just use both" -- I've seen similar statements a LOT lately.

But I am glad you clarified the issue - when ANTZy articles talk about "dual use" we should publicly ask them to define "dual use". NO vapers that I know are dual users, except for maybe a short while when they are first quitting cigs. And I've never seen anyone with a cig in one hand and a vape in the other. But the general public is getting the distinct impression that vaping doesn't work to stop smoking because "most just use both".

Thanks for giving us another target to vent at LOL. :)
 

Jman8

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I am a proud dual user. Some of the posts in this thread are disheartening, others I 'liked.'

I don't think most eCig users are dual users, but do think that within the first year that a vast majority may not kick the habit of smoking, especially if they are looking at eCigs as 'easy way out of smoking' and if that isn't 100% true, then they may revert back to abusive smoking.

Abusive smoking is the issue, for me. I no longer do that. I find it very challenging to consider how anyone could do that in a world where eCigs are being mass produced. About the only way I can reconcile that abusive smoking still exists now is that a) we (the world) are in a massive transitional period and b) ANTZ types are doing all they can to make the transition to full acceptance of vaping as difficult as possible.

I dual use for a couple reasons, but one is for the politics of things.

It isn't "made up". Long term dual users are rare. They do exist. Community-wise a dual user should be welcome. Dual users should be aware of the potential problems.

Dual use escalates the BT, BP and ANTZ fight.
  • ANTZ argue dual for tax and regulation like smoking.
  • ANTZ will attribute smoking illnesses and deaths to vaping. (CDC "Kristy" poster.)
  • Propaganda will deter smokers from looking to switch. (BT & BP Profit.)
  • If dual use is common then the devices aren't capable of being used for cessation.
Etc...

Very much agree that dual users should be welcome and do believe that for the most part they very much are.

I am up for 'escalating the fight' via purposeful dual use. Hence, one of the reasons I dual use. Even if zero dual users existed, ANTZ are going to continue being ANTZ. Anyone that disputes that assertion, please speak up. Be bold. I'll listen. But, I won't kowtow to more ANTZ rhetoric around 'dual use' just because some vapers are onboard suddenly with anti-smoking rhetoric. You ought to be ashamed, and if not, I'll see to it that your words are used against you, for they are that frivolous and easy to defeat.

As one who has quit cold turkey, I get the liberation that can come from cessation. Yet, as one who dual uses and has been liberated from abusive smoking, I am a little more proud as a dual user than I was as non-smoking person with head buried in the proverbial sand. If vaping were only about cessation, then logically at some point, the 'movement' would become all about cessation from vaping. For surely, former vapers will one day exist, and if they are anything like former smokers, I say watch out.

Vaping has become for me, a recreational choice and one that I see many engaged in. I realize that for many it is a cessation device, and I think it will be for as long as we are in this transitional period. But that really does not need any touting or preaching. In fact, I think it works far better for smokers and vaping community if that is discovered on its own, and in own way for each individual. Which for some, perhaps many, that will include some sense of dual using. Possibly dual using indefinitely. Which begs the question of "is cessation occurring if dual user is smoking?" And in my view, if the addiction to abusive smoking has been broken, then it is, in essence occurring. While that is debatable (and I'm up for that debate), I could point to all the vapers who claim without legal access to vaping, they'd be back to smoking (abusively, presumably) which also begs the question of, "have you really quit?"

I rant because I tire of vaping being seen only thru prism of cessation (as in abstinence). I find that to be dangerous thinking but also the norm, it seems of current vaping community. As if being set up like a bowling pin, but thinking instead like it is the most righteous path. Really? Even during my cold turkey days I couldn't stoop to such a low level of ignorance. A shame to see it become the predominant thought (or even an afterthought) within the vaping community.
 

KattMamma

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@Jman8 - I hope you and others know that I wasn't bashing dual users. I am a huge fan of "to each his own" as long as "his own" doesn't affect my liberties.

I am just frustrated at ANTZ throwing around big dual user numbers in an effort to say "vaping to stop smoking doesn't work" - one more tactic to keep smokers from trying vaping. It does work for a lot of us.
 
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AndriaD

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And for the millionth time... if one is not buying or setting fire to cigarettes, ONE HAS QUIT SMOKING. Some folks can smoke non-abusively, but I daresay they're in the minority, thanks to all that nicotine-reinforcing garbage that BT puts in cigarette tobacco. Most of us, if we smoke one cigarette, we're soon going to be looking around for another... and another... and another... and... etc. Vaping IS smoking cessation, if one is not buying nor setting fire to cigarettes. Which says nothing whatever about cessation from vaping -- it's a direct replacement, because if I don't vape, I WILL smoke. Period. But as long as I'm vaping... I'M A NON-SMOKER.

Andria
 

Jman8

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@Jman8 - I hope you and others know that I wasn't bashing dual users. I am a huge fan of "to each his own" as long as "his own" doesn't affect my liberties.

I am just frustrated at ANTZ throwing around big dual user numbers in an effort to say "vaping to stop smoking doesn't work" - one more tactic to keep smokers from trying vaping. It does work for a lot of us.

I too get frustrated by ANTZ lies around dual use. Makes me even more proud to be a dual user.

Let 'em tell their ANTZ lies, so that when future smoker gives vaping a fair shake, they too get to see they've been lied to. For that person the ANTZ acronym is probably unknown or not understood well. They can then travel the path of, "I wonder how much they've been lying to me about tobacco use in general." And a few days (or years) later realize, "oh, most of what they've put forth has been deception. Now I know."

Smokers too stubborn to give vaping a fair shake is I think normal. It isn't easy to simply try something else because other people think you should. I would think all former smokers (of the abusive kind) would get this, without question. People will get into vaping when they are truly ready for it, and when that happens, ANTZ just lost another automaton.
 

hashtag

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I thought this was going to be an interesting comparison of the addiction to tech vs nicotine which would have made a much better piece. I find that most who actually get into vaping quit the dual use and go one way or the other at some point. There are a lot of people trying to quit that never quite take to vaping and remain smokers but that is a whole different category to me. The studies they site never reflect my real world experience. All of my friends who used to smoke now vape and none have gone back, no one at my work out on our "porch" smokes cigs at all anymore. It is all vape and I believe that is due to what I thought this article was about the tech addiction. We all buy gear all the time and talk about new vape products/juices which keeps us all involved in the vape habit and keeps the cigs at bay. I smoke low nic juices and sometimes zero nic so I don't feel like my nicotine addiction is anywhere near what it was when I was smoking but my tech addiction is possibly stronger than ever before.

They say the 3-6 month quit rates are the same but that hasn't been what I have seen. I am at the 6 month date since my last cig and most people I know are quit longer than I am. I even went to Vegas last week and made it through without any cigs, that is a test I've never seen a patch or gum user make it through.
 

Jman8

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And for the millionth time... if one is not buying or setting fire to cigarettes, ONE HAS QUIT SMOKING.

So, when I quit smoking cold turkey, I was a non-smoker, yes? I only ask cause some think if I smoke again (which I did), that I didn't really quit. Yet, my not smoking for a decade would strongly suggest otherwise.

Some folks can smoke non-abusively, but I daresay they're in the minority, thanks to all that nicotine-reinforcing garbage that BT puts in cigarette tobacco.

Before vaping, I could not smoke non-abusively. I tried several times, and never succeeded. With vaping in the picture, I find it impossible to smoke abusively, but also not really trying any more to smoke abusively, since moderation works oh so well.

Most of us, if we smoke one cigarette, we're soon going to be looking around for another... and another... and another... and... etc. Vaping IS smoking cessation, if one is not buying nor setting fire to cigarettes. Which says nothing whatever about cessation from vaping -- it's a direct replacement, because if I don't vape, I WILL smoke. Period. But as long as I'm vaping... I'M A NON-SMOKER.

Andria

And even if you smoked abusively again, by choice, then you would have choice to return to vaping and experience cessation again. I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand.
 
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