Atheist, A Synonym for Bitterness

[Infernal2]

Hiya kids, I guess I should start off by saying I'm an atheist and give a little history. I grew up in a predominately Methodist home to good and intelligent parents. Church was required until I turned twelve and got to make my own choices. Oddly enough for an atheist, I've had some very positive experiences with the church and my time in the halls of methodism were remembered fondly. Oddly enough, two other long time atheist friends are from the same church.

So twelve years old I decided to give another church a try, an episcopal church with a mostly grey population. Older folks worshiping in their own way, guided by an incredible pastor that eventually went to work for the United Nations. So one day, in our marvelously small youth group, I was chatting off to the side with Father Renegar and he intimated that he didn't believe in hell.

Wow, a Pastor serving in the second oldest church in the US (built by the Wesleys) and to hear him say, "I just don't believe in hell, I think it was merely a scare tactic. God preaches love, kindness, caring and charity and hell is the big slap in the face." He went on to explain how he didn't even believe the God of the Israelites, in the old Testament was really a different deity.

Somewhere in that conversation the seeds to seek out knowledge were sown. I spent years reading philosophy, history, religious texts, positively engaging Christians who would answer me, help me despite our differences. And the cold hard realization that I didn't believe didn't turn me against the stodgy control mechanisms of the church, honestly, it set me free.

So my question is, why, as atheists, are we so bitter? We are able to marvel without bias at the wonders around us and to gaze on the mysteries of the universe awed by its complexity. So then, why are so many of us negative? Yes, the church has been a terrible influence on history and every religion is filled with hypocrites. I don't deny the source of the anger, but is the negativity a necessary reaction to our freedom? Do we need to demonstrate with such hubris where gaps in knowledge and socio-cultural influences hold down the religiously inflicted?

I'm guilty of it too, despite my mostly positive experience of the church, but I ask, seriously, is the path to opening more minds cloaked in hubris a necessity?

We have the wonder of the universe before us, why do we seem so bitter?

 

[girlsaint]

I think it's because we wanted it to be true.
Best part is this. Remember when we found out Santa wasn't real? Well our parents didn't pack up the gifts and put away the family celebrations.
We as human beings have evolved to be social creatures, and I have found most people to be basically good at heart. There is still good in the world, but to find out that you are responsible for your own happiness and the life that you are living now, and that there are no do-overs is kind of a let down. The churches were of 2 camps... do whatever and you will be forgiven camp, and the do absolutely nothing or you will burn in hell camp. Either way, your life, the ONLY life you have, can be pretty miserable if you were living it as if it were a precursor to another life.
Just for a moment think of all the things people miss out on.....I would be bitter too if it dawned on me that I wasted my life waiting for a fairytale. Probably even more bitter that I could not just close my mind and live in the bliss that is ignorance.


I am not in the bitter group. After reading Dawkins- I feel free.

 

[Infernal2]

That makes sense girlsaint and while I know that people who have found their way to what they see as the intelligent choice of atheism feel there is a need to combat the ignorance of others. Maybe not directly, but when presented for example here, with opportunities to debate and discuss, we do battle certain preconceived notions of what atheism is. I won't deny someone their own illusions but I too am not willing to stand by when insults and allusions are made. But I do ask, why are we dealing with these people with anger, when it should be pity. We've thrown off our shackles and like you (and Dawkins) I think that feeling of freedom should be paramount when dealing with those who would throw stones.

 

[simply me]

Thats a good question infernal. Why are you so bitter? Your bitter because of me for what I believe in. The funny thing here is I'm not bitter because you don't believe in what I believe in. I really don't think thats it. I to see hypocrites. The Lord said I would. That pastor is not a pastor of light. He's a false leader. The Lord said there would be. You want a perfect world but it just can't be. See God made us to have choices. Would be nice if he just would decide for us, but he gave us that freedom. No I don't think thats why your bitter. I think It's because God made us to know Him. There is a hole inside of you that's empty. A void. You seem to search for something. If you don't fill that void there will be no joy and without joy there is bitterness. Don't pity me infernal. I'm with God. And your pastor is wrong there is a hell. Now there's the pity.

 

[Infernal2]

Thats a good question infernal. Why are you so bitter? Your bitter because of me for what I believe in. The funny thing here is I'm not bitter because you don't believe in what I believe in. I really don't think thats it. I to see hypocrites. The Lord said I would. That pastor is not a pastor of light. He's a false leader. The Lord said there would be. You want a perfect world but it just can't be. See God made us to have choices. Would be nice if he just would decide for us, but he gave us that freedom. No I don't think thats why your bitter. I think It's because God made us to know Him. There is a hole inside of you that's empty. A void. You seem to search for something. If you don't fill that void there will be no joy and without joy there is bitterness. Don't pity me infernal. I'm with God. And your pastor is wrong there is a hell. Now there's the pity.

Really? Do you have any actual proof of your claims or are you simply aping the teachings of your church? I can offer proof of the amazing complexity of the universe. I can offer proof on how an amazing yet weak force of gravity has shaped not just this sphere we live on but on our very bodies. I can marvel in the majesty of the night sky and offer your proof of existence of millions of galaxies containing millions of stars each. I hold in my sight the beauty of everything and the most your book offers me is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Don't get me wrong simply, that's an amazing teaching yet its sullied by the weight of history of your church as well as the hypocrisy of its other speakers.

And I believe you have also failed to read not only the title of this subforum but fail to grasp the most blatant of subtexts. I'm not bitter. I'm amazed and I don't need an ancient book perverted by governments and eucumenical expediency to keep me smiling at the majesty of our world. I pity you for your blind adherence, your lack of proof, and not being able to see what forum you were in.

Enjoy.

 

[simply me]

Ok show me the hard facts. I want thos facts. I know what I have seen in my life. And yes
God is real. I wasn't raise in a church I didn't here it all my life. I know God is real because he showed me. I don't expect you to understand, you aren't borned of the spirit. Look and you will find. But prove me thos hard facts you mouthing off about. I know what forum I'm in, about time to shed some light in here. And you are bitter I can see it in your words. Show me that proof and I will leave. hypocrisy, you say that like it is everyone and everything. Yes there is hypocrisy with Christains and atheist. It's everywhere. God talks of that. Yep he doesn't like it either. We all will be accountable for what we do. But don't judge everyone.You know what, I am going to leave you forum because your right I don't belong here. But I will be looking for that proof, hard facts.

 

[Infernal2]

Ok show me the hard facts. I want thos facts. I know what I have seen in my life. And yes
God is real. I wasn't raise in a church I didn't here it all my life. I know God is real because he showed me. I don't expect you to understand, you aren't borned of the spirit. Look and you will find. But prove me thos hard facts you mouthing off about. I know what forum I'm in, about time to shed some light in here. And you are bitter I can see it in your words. Show me that proof and I will leave. hypocrisy, you say that like it is everyone and everything. Yes there is hypocrisy with Christains and atheist. It's everywhere. God talks of that. Yep he doesn't like it either. We all will be accountable for what we do. But don't judge everyone.You know what, I am going to leave you forum because your right I don't belong here. But I will be looking for that proof, hard facts.

Simple proof of the complexity of the Universe (as well as the reference to the numbers of stars):

The Hubble Deep Field Photos

To something far smaller:

Fractal Complexity in Food

Here is a very simple to understand article about how gravity effects bone density:

Exposure to the microgravity environment of space causes astronauts to lose calcium from bones. This loss occurs because the absence of Earth's gravity disrupts the process of bone maintenance in its major function of supporting body weight.

Space biomedical researchers have found that exposure to the microgravity environment of space causes men and women of all ages to lose up to 1% of their bone mass per month due to disuse atrophy, a condition similar to osteoporosis. It is not yet clear whether losses in bone mass will continue as long as a person remains in the microgravity environment or level off in time.

NASA - exposure to the microgravity environment of space causes astronauts to lose calcium from bones

Now your turn, objective proof on the existence of God. Ready...... Go!

Oh wait. Maybe I won't hold my breath.

 

[analog]

I'm not bitter at all in my atheism. I had pleasant experiences growing up in church, and later many spiritual practices. In fact my sister and her husband are super religious, presby deacons, and my sis and I will often chat till the wee hours of the morn on nuances of theology that drive my bro-in-law crazy, I know the ins and outs he doesn't even care about his own religion!

Personally I do sometimes get "bitter" and negative to dogma of all types, most often encountered in my part of the world as evangelicals or baptists, but I have the same reaction to mindless dogma in (psuedo) science, politics, art, or satanism. I may sometimes come across as bitter when encountering particular offensive unthinking aspects of religious culture, but at the same time I know that I can have good bonding experiences with more tolerant and intellectual aspects of religious culture.

It's a great subject from the OP, thanks. The rest of it? Meh. Let me tell simply me something. I believe that you know for a fact god is real. I understand your experience, guess what, I've had that relationship too. It's an amazing wondrous thing. To enter into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, it's just, words fail me....amazing. It really works, it's an experience and relationship that can't be denied. Put simply, it works. And then you try a different denomination/church/paster. Guess what that works too, same Jesus, so I guess that's why it still works when you change churches. But then you try some taoist meditation....uh oh, that works too. Hmmm, they don't have jesus, but hey, taoism isn't really a religion, so we won't worry too much just yet, we can still cling on to the reality of our friend Jesus. But then you live with a Buddhist for a few years and pick up a few things, and damnit, that works too. Thats even more religion like than taoism, how can that work too? Uh Oh, maybe buddy christ isn't the only game in town. Let's try Islam, damnit, that works too! Wicca, shucks, works too, just as real, just as intimate, just as personal, just as true feeling.

I guess what I'm getting at is you may be surprised to find that when you talk about how you know your god is real, you may ironically preaching to the choir. Many of us atheists know your god is real, to you. If you're happy where you're at, cool with me, but don't think that many of us haven't been there before, and haven't found a better, more joyous world BEYOND belief in god. It's like you just learned to .........e and you think that all of us having sex don't believe in .........ion. We do, it's just that we went further and learned that there are lots of ways to get your rocks off, and none of them have anything to do with some over-arching universal truth. It's just a (sometimes) interesting fact about the human experience. You grab your privates, move hand around, feel good. You hear the stories, say the prayers, meet jesus and feel salvation. No difference. Equal significance.

(oh and if you think that all non-believers have some void that is preventing them from living a joyous life, oh my, well, we're not. I'm chock fulla joy and long ago realized that the only void I had was myself, from being enculturated to feel like I needed a god, a savior, a teacher, a parent, a cop. All along all I needed was to realize I had no void, all I needed was myself. A loving supporting community helps too, and believe me, mine is joy incarnate!)

 

[analog]

I forgot to add a joke, since this is my first visit to this group, I meant to start with some humor!

What do you call an atheist with kids?
A Unitarian!

ETA,
Proof that god doesn't exist? while typing this I just got notification I won a new PV kit in one of the contests!!!! Yes, the universe loves me and fills me with joy!

 

[Infernal2]

(oh and if you think that all non-believers have some void that is preventing them from living a joyous life, oh my, well, we're not. I'm chock fulla joy and long ago realized that the only void I had was myself, from being enculturated to feel like I needed a god, a savior, a teacher, a parent, a cop. All along all I needed was to realize I had no void, all I needed was myself. A loving supporting community helps too, and believe me, mine is joy incarnate!)

And this is what I wish I'd see from more of the atheists I know. A very positive statement, thank you.

 

[samuraijill]

I don't expect you to understand, you aren't borned of the spirit

that is just.............so awesome. I swear I almost peed my pants.

 

[mgaruccio]

Ok show me the hard facts. I want thos facts. I know what I have seen in my life. And yes
God is real. I wasn't raise in a church I didn't here it all my life. I know God is real because he showed me. I don't expect you to understand, you aren't borned of the spirit. Look and you will find. But prove me thos hard facts you mouthing off about. I know what forum I'm in, about time to shed some light in here. And you are bitter I can see it in your words. Show me that proof and I will leave. hypocrisy, you say that like it is everyone and everything. Yes there is hypocrisy with Christains and atheist. It's everywhere. God talks of that. Yep he doesn't like it either. We all will be accountable for what we do. But don't judge everyone.You know what, I am going to leave you forum because your right I don't belong here. But I will be looking for that proof, hard facts.

I hope that you see this even though it seems unlikely as the thread is pretty old but oh well I'll give it a shot. You ask for cold hard proof that god does not exist, but in return only offer a belief that he does, one that we apparently cannot understand because we don't share the same beliefs that you do. I would argue that the evidence for the non-existance of a god (or at least a classically defined Christian god which I assume is the "god" you are referring to when you state that he/she/it exists) is much stronger than your belief that he is there.

Also I take an issue with the idea that if god exists he gave humans freedom of choice, he is said to have omniscient and to have created the entire universe, if this is true then he set the starting conditions for the universe and since he is omniscient he knew/knows exactly what that combination of starting conditions will eventually lead to, and also would know the full ramifications of any changes made to the system while it was running. This would give us the illusion of choice because there is no way for any single human to comprehend even a tiny fraction of the starting conditions and their effect on the rest of the system but in reality everything that happens is already predefined and just playing out based on the rules of the system and the starting conditions. This includes the actions of humans as they are shaped by two things and those are their environment(which god would know all of the parameters of now and in the future) and their genetics(same thing, god would know this, in theory long before you are actually born) and so if god created the universe and people and he was able to see the full ramifications of every choice made then in essence he chose the course of the universe when he created it. so in essence there are three choices 1. god is not omniscient 2. Humans don't actually have free will 3. and this is my favorite, there is no god. now I can also argue that humans don't have free will even if there is not a god because all of the starting conditions were set when the universe was created(how it was created really doesnt matter) and we are all just parts of that system that is working its way through to its end but still the idea that evil in the world is the result of god giving people free will just doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny.

finally I would like to make a point about why atheists come off as bitter, it is largely because we see religious beliefs dominating the lives of many people around us and causing harm to others. I have no issues with you believing what you want to believe, but I do take issue when you expressing those beliefs treads upon the rights of others who do not share your beliefs. The examples of this are too numerous to get all of them but I'll start with the obvious one: the religious Jihad being waged by some members of the Muslim faith, if these people did not fully believe that their religion was the correct one and that establishing a worldwide caliphate governed by religious law was their duty and good for the world do you really think 9/11 would have happened? But thats probably a bit too distant for you as you probably don't see the parallels between the current conflicts and the christian crusades so lets try another one: the (supposedly secular) american courts taking away a child that was adopted by atheist parents due only to the fact that they do not believe in a god and by the courts own admission had "high moral an ethical standards) link if you don't believe me - Can Atheists Be Parents? - TIME there are many more examples I can cite if you like but I think thats a decent reason for us to be bitter, considering that we are one of the most unfairly demonized groups in existence for no reason other than the fact that we choose not to believe in that which cannot be proven.

 

[sirvapsalot86]

I'm kind of bitter in a way, I guess. I'd say the root cause would be that I have to live in a world that is so deeply integrated with something I do not believe in. I live in a country that is supposed to protect your freedom of religion, yet I feel like an outcast of society. It's just an ever dwelling sub conscious feeling.

 

[zengrrl]

Hello. I am very sorry for atheists, even the positive ones. Atheists must, by definition, be either nihilists or egotists (read Narcissusists) I am coming from the buddhist standpoint....that....there exists no inherent self or other. Once you can understand the fact that there is no inherently existing "self" or "other", you are free to move about the universe, and it's a total blast! There's no end to the expansion. Good Journey, love zengrrl

 

[FunkyVapes]

inherently existing "self"

I don't think any athiest, scientist or rationalist would claim that there IS an ''inherently existing self''. I also think you should look into what those three words mean in the sequntial context you used them.

I'm not trying to be condescending, I just want you to understand what you're accusing (or implying) athiests (or any sane person) of believing.

Sent from my Galaxy

 

[Creniker]

I'm not atheist. Just want to say that. But my best friend in the world is. I think its funny that people like simply me have to have such a holier then thou attitude. I believe it what I believe because I believe it, if that makes sense. And athiest believe in what they believe, or don't believe because of what they believe. What I'm trying to say is why try to argue one way or another. I believe god is behind all the science in the universe. While others may disagree that god is behind it, thats ok. I live in America, where your allowed to just.... believe. Live and let live. Be happy with what you have. Educate others if they ask, but don't force it on others. Its just common decency.

 

[cr12]

Good point I have many friends that atr atheists I personally am not but I'm very open to their beliefs and I don't try to proselytize and tell them about my personal beliefs I feel like if they want to know they will ask. I have seen so many people damaged by Christians and frankly I can understand an atheist being bitter, a lot of christians are over bearing and quick to tell someone they're wrong. It has to be extremely exhausting to listen to a diatribe everytime you mention your an atheist. So I can understand and respect their position as well as their beliefs. So next time someone says they're a Christian don't go all Darwin on them. Not all of us are judgemental and ridiculous

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[Needo]

“Why are atheists in general bitter?”
This is easy to answer if one is an older atheist that grew up in a time when heresy of any sort would get you ostracized. Even now, there is only a marginal guarantee of equal protection under the law. But, 30 years ago it was much worse. 50 years ago, such an admission would almost every case guarantee you harassment by law officials to the point that one would have to leave town.
Taking a look further back in history, how can a slave feel about their masters that subjugate them through the threat of violence? Why would I compare atheist to slaves? If you think about the technological, philosophical, and scientific contributions that were made to society, you will notice that a disproportionate number of these contributions were made by atheist and agnostics. The rewards received by these individuals are paltry in comparison to the benefits that were enjoyed by others.
Luckily our children don’t have to experience near the harshness that many of us have grown up with. The bitterness should dissipate with a leveling of the playing field. These things take time to fix.

 

[airtractorbill]

ok a lil back round on me befor i say what i have to say i was raised in a mormon family my grandpa was about as high up as you could. I was forced to go to church every sunday three hours of it a week and church functions every week. The older i got the more questions i would ask the more they wouldnt get answered and if they did got to have faith is what i got or you just have to believe and he will show.. and that didnt make any sence to me at all so when i got a lil older like 13 iput my foot down and let my parents know i wasnt going anymore and when they asked why i had questions that needed to be answered and if they couldnt i didnt want to go and i would find a different church to go to and so they let me go so i went to sevreal different churchs and the same things happened again and again so i stoped going then in college i had a proffesser challenge me to find the answer i was looking for and the more i looked the more i found and didnt like about group religon not saying all people are bad in them just a lot of people are in the church for the wrong reason the more i felt like there wasnt a god or an of that deity stuff it just didnt add up... so after even more rsearch i started to not to believe in god and after a while the void i had was gone i am a happier person because i dont need people telling stories from a book about what is right or wrong good or evil none of that i know what is righ and wrong am i a atheist no i am nothing more them me do i think religon is a bad thing no it does a lot of good for a lot people is it for me no... am i bitter no the people that come to my house are because i will set and talk to them and ask the same questions i have asked for about 15 years and get the same answers in the end i am a happy person every body that knows me knows that i am always smiling and happy fun i just dont like people telling me all the time i am going to this so called hell place no when i die i am going to be put back in the earth and help replinsh some of the nutreint that i have taken from it thats is all sorry for the rant

 

[kumquat]

Smart people see reality as it actually is and it isn't pretty, for the most part. Theists aren't smart; if they were, they wouldn't believe in the supernatural.