Atomizer Cleaned ! Simple Cheap Effective Method.

[exogenesis]

Round Three : Testing the e-liquids ingredients seperately:
Part 1. Glycerine

(click a thumbnail for bigger image)

btw there was a Round Two (15 ml flavoured PG liquid):

but the wire snapped due to the coil expansion with the hard build-up, sigh.



Anyway moving over to Joye510 atomizers, which run hotter than 901's,
(taking 850 mA at 3V rather than 500 mA).


New coil:



After vaping 28 ml of plain Glycerine (VG) over 3 days
(actual recipe was 30 ml glycerine + thinned with 4 ml deionised water):


This build-up is definately softer than round two at the top.

Not decided yet which way to test cleaning.

Thinking I might try a sequence of low to high probability of success:

1 water wash
2 alcohol wash
3 vinegar soak
3 lemon juice soak
3 coke soak
6 Heat wire at 1200 mA, or at least bright cherry red.
7 hydrogen peroxide 'boil-in-place'

or should I just go for the kill (i.e. 6 & 7 only) ?
or maybe 7 first, then 6 & 7 to see if it gets any cleaner.

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[nomochokes]

I'm new to this and so far have not had to change out atomizers yet so I don't want to experiment with this at this time but was wondering if anyone has tried baking soda and vinegar. This creates a very basic chemical reaction that consist of non hazardous materials that should be safe after the fact.

Not sure if it would work any better than all the other things that have been tried but you never know! If you have tried then please post your results.

Thanks.

 

[exogenesis]

Hi nomochokes,
I've tried alternating drops of phophoric acid & saturated 'bicarbonate of soda'
(baking powder has acids included in it).

Make a lot of fizz & repeatedly breaks tiny chunks of black debris off
of the gunked coil, but eventually that stopped happening, & there was
still a lot of hard gunk on the coil.

Then again this was for a very heavily gunked coil in the first place.
The method may be quite good for lighter caking ?

 

[~Wonder]

Thinking I might try a sequence of low to high probability of success:

1 water wash
2 alcohol wash
3 vinegar soak
3 lemon juice soak
3 coke soak
6 Heat wire at 1200 mA, or at least bright cherry red.
7 hydrogen peroxide 'boil-in-place'

or should I just go for the kill (i.e. 6 & 7 only) ?
or maybe 7 first, then 6 & 7 to see if it gets any cleaner.

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

Why don't you try a soak in distilled water for an hour or two and than a rinse and then maybe some heat. See how much comes off that way.

 

[Ann]

I have cleaned stuff for years with baking soda and vinegar. What if people just need to clean out the atty everyday to keep the build up off, if that is even possible. Just a thought. So far I have not lost an atty and they all look good, as best as I can see in there anyway.

 

[exogenesis]

OK wonder, I'll try that, water soak then wash.
But will probably then go to H2O2 before heating first,
possibly to show whether heating is required before H2O2.

Ann, I think it's possible that the mild methods, like weak acid soak
(vinegar, coke or lemon juice)
if regularly done could stop things getting as bad as these extreme tests,
but it seems to be different for everyone.

 

[Ann]

OK wonder, I'll try that, water soak then wash.
But will probably then go to H2O2 before heating first,
possibly to show whether heating is required before H2O2.

Ann, I think it's possible that the mild methods, like weak acid soak
(vinegar, coke or lemon juice)
if regularly done could stop things getting as bad as these extreme tests,
but it seems to be different for everyone.

I understand that.

 

[surbitonPete]

Hi exo.....even though I haven't tried it yet....I think your no7 is probably going to be the most effective cleaning method of all.

 

[jesrf]

I'm new to this and so far have not had to change out atomizers yet so I don't want to experiment with this at this time but was wondering if anyone has tried baking soda and vinegar. This creates a very basic chemical reaction that consist of non hazardous materials that should be safe after the fact.

Not sure if it would work any better than all the other things that have been tried but you never know! If you have tried then please post your results.

Thanks.

nomo,

I have used vinegar and baking soda (talked about it in another thread) . Primarily on 401 atomizer (and one nPro) The nPor has been used for 6 weeks and is still going strong.

My method is filling the atomizer with baking soda, and then dropping it into a glass of vinegar. Blow dry, repeat... It works best if I let it soak in the vinegar for an extended period of time (such as overnight). The 401 atomizers are very hard to see in, however there is a significant amount of black/gray material floating in the vinegar afterwards. It is extremely hard to get baking soda down into a 401 atomizer as well.

Last week I began using this treatment every other day on my atomizers as "maintenance". I have two dead 401 atomizers and will disassemble one and try this if someone would like to recommend the best way to disassemble the atomizer.

I believe the key is to actually get the baking soda on to the coil, then give it the vinegar (we used to clean car battery's this way)

 

[exogenesis]

Round Three : Testing the e-liquids ingredients seperately: Part 1. Glycerine - RESULTS

(All pictures can be clicked on for larger a picture)

Start (new Joye510 atomizer) and after 28 ml glycerine vaped:


Tried boiling-in-place first (no burn cycle) :
deionised-water, then hydrogen-peroxide (H2O2):

Not very much removed.

The real clean cycle:
1280mA burn at '4.5V' setting , after burn,
reset to 3V (850mA),
H2O2 boil-in-place, H2O2 boil-in-place with added ammonia (NH3),

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ^
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PRETTY CLEAN
Burn cycle ashes the gunk
(don't like the yellow ash colour much - not sure what that implies),
H2O2 fizz breaks off the ash,
much better with added NH3 (1 part household ammonia, 10 parts H2O2 solution),
because the fizz is made much more vigorous.


NH3/H2O2 fizz on heated wire (850mA with normal 3V setting):




Fairly good result, a bit of ammonia in the H2O2 does quite a
good job of fizzically removing the ashed gunk.
Cleans up the ceramic pot nicely too.

There's no remaining chemicals, since the NH3 all gasses off,
and the H2O2 is broken down to water.
Still I'd rinse the atomizer in water anyway to
clear away the broken off ash.


Next test VG + 20% loranne flavouring,
or shall I wait, to receive the pure PG I ordered, to test that first ?

 

[kinabaloo]

An interesting implication of this test is confirmation of the decomposition of glycerine to acrolein.

The deposit will likely have been derived from polymerisation of some fraction of the acrolein gas immediately on formation and its subsequent degradation. This experiment shows that the amount is quite substantial; the acrid smell that is occasionally noticed is quite possibly due to released acrolein (acrolein means 'acrid oil'). What other volatile breakdown products are subsequently released during the decomposition of the various weights of polimerised acrolein is unknown. There is not much chemistry detailed for acrolein available on the web, but one interesting article is this one: Acrolein (HSG 67, 1991)

Although polymerisation might not be occuring, and some other reactions and products implicated, that some acrolein is produced is in little doubt as the chemistry is clear. The issue is how little is it - and what might be done to minimise it (a smaller percentage of VG might help more than just the reduction of volume would suggest, as the boiling point of the mix would be lowered; there might be some chemical way to capture and render harmless any acrolein produced, although it would likely not catch it all; adding a small amount of alcohol to lower the b.p. further; etc.) Certainly acrolein is very reactive, which is why it can be dangerous. Acrolein is one of the (many) toxins produced by burning tobacco; possibly from glycerine added to keep the tobacco moist. A tiny environmental background exposure exists and it is found in some food products after cooking.

This is basically the straightforward and definitive test that I suggested some time ago to see if glycerine would decompose in the atomizer. The experiment described above did indeed use an atomizer, but as far as i can tell one run constantly rather than intermittently, so further testing is advisable.

The hope that VG might not decompose as it would be largely evaporated at a lower temperature by being only a part of the juice seems not to be the case; a certain amount of fractional distillation will take place and some molecules of VG will experience its normal boiling point (coincidentally also the temperature at which decomposition begins), or possibly higher; the temperature at evaporation of the molecules would follow something like a bell curve such that some part would reach decomposition temperature even though the boiling 'point' of the mix would be lower. Localised temperature variations in the coil and inner wick would also play a part.

There is, however, no need to panic as the use of VG based juices seems generally well tolerated but it this issue nevertheless requires further study.

In this article, the inventor mentions seven studies that found no harmful levels of by products: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...cigarettes25-2009apr25,0,7059574.story?page=2 though this might not have been with VG-based juices.

It is worth noting a similar bit of chemistry in high-temperature cooked foods regarding the formation of acrylamide.

 

[kinabaloo]

The dark 'gunk' is changed to a light grey with yellow tint by heating the coil with a high current to cherry red-hot. This could be due to burning off the black colored carbon to carbon dioxide gas leaving the light colored inorganics - carbonates, silicates, etc., possibly plus some heavy weight organics. The yellow tint might be due to compounds of tin.

The metastructure of the deposit might be full of minute holes now and much easier to break apart with a gas producing reaction (such as decomposition of hydrogen peroxide). If the remaining deposit is indeed now mostly inorganic minerals, an acid bath would work better at this point than on the original deposit.

 

[exogenesis]

Hi Kinabaloo,

thought we'd lost you for a while there.

Although I agree that it likely that some small amount of
acrolein is being produced,
I'm not sure, but I doubt if the bulk of the gunk is acrolein polymer based.
I think the 'wet' gunk would have been significantly yellow & smelly
if it was, which it wasn't.

Acrolein tends to polymerize when left at room temperature,
leaving a gummy yellowish residue with a putrid odor

I was a little surprised that there was practically no acrid 'burning grease'
smell to the very smoke-like 'vapour' produced, well maybe a little bit near the end.

I agree that the 'ashed' gunk yellow colour is probably due to inorganic salts of tin,
and / or other metals.
I might test that to be sure, but the bits are really tiny making that difficult.

The 'auto-vaper' rig had periodic 'off' rests, as well as occasional
floodings, and even some short run-dry hot (not glowing) periods.
So all-in-all I think the gunk result is pretty close to what you'd get
doing it manually (Sun Vaporer may be able to confirm or deny that).

I would guess the ash is physically lifted from the wire/wick/walls by
the intense & harsh micro-bubble fizzing of the oxygen being liberated,
this ashed gunk was already fairly broken-apart already be the burn cycle.

This might not be the case for the much harder gunk I've produced using PG + flavours,
so tiny tunnels in the gunk may well play a part for the latter.
We will see...with the next tests.

 

[kinabaloo]

"Although I agree that it likely that some small amount of
acrolein is being produced,
I'm not sure, but I doubt if the bulk of the gunk is acrolein polymer based.
I think the 'wet' gunk would have been significantly yellow & smelly
if it was, which it wasn't.

Quote:
Acrolein tends to polymerize when left at room temperature,
leaving a gummy yellowish residue with a putrid odor "

Well, acrolein is the initial decomposition product. Some will polymerize and some and then be degraded by the at times intense heat of the coil. One would not expect to see acrolein polymers, but burnt/degraded products. The only other input in this situation is the air, and perhaps also tin if that is leeched with this juice; perhaps these play a part in the reactions from acrolein to gunk. (There will be a tiny amount of airborn contaminants too, such as dust and pollen)

Perhaps some approximate calculations can be made. We know the amount of VG passed through (50% of the juice volume?) and can estimate the amount of gunk. Then estimate how much acrolein might result in that much gunk after degradation. The idea being to get a figure for what percentage of VG is decomposing.

In a similar way, we might estimate the amount of acrolein that escapes as gas (some lighter polymers may also escape). We can assume that the concetration is generally below smell detection which puts it at most at about 0.05mg/m3. Most of the volume inhaled is just passed through air. Taking the volume increase at phase change of the two components and their densities into account would lead to an approximate maximum for normal-operation release of acrolein.

It would also be interesting to try to capture any acrolein or polymers or other reaction products in the vapor output, perhaps by filter, condensation or bubbling through a reactant.

Not sure to what the extent the decomposition (essentially dehydration) is reversible, with acrolein combining with water back to glycerine; perhaps not very likely.

 

[exogenesis]

I get the feeling you're assuming some amount of acrolein is present
in the 'vapour' or near the coil.
This hasn't been confirmed by analysis, and the only actual (slightly ambiguous)
manufacturer's analysis statement I've seen was 'was not detected'.

I wish I had my own GC/MS equipment to be able to make any definitive statement
one way or the other, but I don't, so supposition one way or the other is a bit
fruitless, unless some other significant evidence turns up.

Perhaps it's be best if we start (yet another) thread about acrolein,
all I'm trying to show in this thread is effectiveness of a cleaning
process on the atomizer gunk, which it seems to be.


Anyway...
the pictures in the latest 'glycerine' only test

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ple-cheap-effective-method-11.html#post215731

show a pretty good result.

Next up for testing is a much harder gunk, produced by fairly commonly used home mixes
of strong nicotine-content PG, glycerine and a mixture of the heavier coloured, opaque loranne flavours.
Some with caramel colouring.

Recipe for this will be:

10 ml 36mg flavourless e-liquid
5 ml glycerine
3 ml mixture of BlackWalnut, Pralines&Cream, VanillaButternut, Coffee, RootBeer

Not too sure what that'll smell like, probably quite nice.

 

[surbitonPete]

That's a brilliant piece of work Exo....I really don't think there will be a better way to clean a coil than your method. Your coils before cleaning look exactly like mine always do and your photo sequence show definite success...........I still have my fingers crossed for a 'safe' cleaner that simply dissolves the gunk but I have come to the conclusion there is very little chance of that.

 

[surbitonPete]

Talking about the Acrolyn.....every now and then..usualy when the cart is getting a bit dry I get an awful 'fatty' taste.....does anyone think that has anything to do with Acrolyn?

 

[exogenesis]

Can't prove it one way or the other without the equipment Pete,
perhaps we ought to buy some acrolein & compare smell/taste 8-o

Just cleaned 5 of my atomizers with the H2O2/NH4/boil-on-coil method,
pretty quick & easy.
Realisticallly need to have a clamp to hold the hot atomizer,
(like in the vid on the first post),
and some paper towel to stop any leaking liquid
(coming from the atty intake hole) getting on your skin,
cos your skin will be too clean otherwise

 

[kinabaloo]

"I get the feeling you're assuming some amount of acrolein is present
in the 'vapour' or near the coil.
This hasn't been confirmed by analysis, and the only actual (slightly ambiguous)
manufacturer's analysis statement I've seen was 'was not detected'.

I wish I had my own GC/MS equipment to be able to make any definitive statement
one way or the other, but I don't, so supposition one way or the other is a bit
fruitless, unless some other significant evidence turns up."

That's the chemistry: when heated to near its boiling point glycerine decomposes by dehydration to water and acrolein. The acrolein is therefore the starting material for the formation of the gunk seen in this test with no other constituent present (other than water). There is no other explanation on the table and it would be hard to imagine one.

Released acrolein vapor might be significant in certain circumstances (coil running dry) but is generally indetectable by nose in normal operation. IMO some acrolein will always be produced by vaping a juice containing glycerine but the amount will be greatly reduced by being only a fraction of the juice; more than that fraction less as the other juice bulk ingredients (water and alcohol, and perhaps PG) reduce the general boiling point of the mixture in flash heating. But it cannot be eliminated; however, the amount might well be insignificant and give no short-term effects such as skin, lung and eye irritation. The argument about long-term exposure remains. It might be a level only comparable to background environmental exposure.

It would seem the majority polymerises and degardes on the coil to form the part of the deposit. Hence, although it is still worthwhile to reduce the dry-deposit level of juices by consideration of the flavorings used, a juice that does not lead to any deposit is now clearly not possible when VG is used - it makes a considerable contribution.

My understanding is that PG alone also causes a deposit (less in quantity but harder to remove according to testing by Sun).

I will start a new thread on this aspect of vaping, this post tidying up what was started.

 

[exogenesis]

...The acrolein is therefore the starting material for the formation of the gunk seen in this test with no other constituent present (other than water). There is no other explanation on the table and it would be hard to imagine one...

...I will start a new thread on this aspect of vaping, this post tidying up what was started.

What about oxidation 'carbonisation' and heat polymerisation of the glycerine itself....
doesn't that seem as (or more) likely?
28000 milligrams glycerine ----> say 20 milligrams gunk, so less than 1/1000 conversion.

OK thanks