Banned in Jordan

Discussion in 'Law and the E-Cigarette' started by cucurucho, Jan 28, 2009.

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  1. cucurucho

    cucurucho Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2008
    Sydney, Australia
    Jordan Times

    Another one bites the dust...
     
  2. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    I suppose we could post a world map and color in countries where this becomes banned. If those are red, we can save a lot by not buying blue ink.

    We need to fight the lies. It is not true that e-smokers get more nicotine per puff than cigarette smokers. It's not true by every test done to date. Yet that's the first argument used in the Jordan ban.

    There is no "higher percentage of nicotine" with e-smoking.
     
  3. Bond_ James Bond

    Bond_ James Bond Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 2, 2008
    USA
    Israel also does not permit nicotine in electronic cigarettes. it is sold there, but with nicotine free cartridges.
     
  4. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    UK
    "... The ministry cited a “higher percentage of nicotine”, used in the device ..."

    I agree, we need to fight the lies, there are no credible puff tests.

    How have you calculated that there is no higher percentage of nicotine with esmoking?

    My maths doesn't say that, I think we can take massive doses of nicotine with esmoking.
     
  5. Sirico

    Sirico Full Member

    Jan 27, 2009
    Middlesbourgh
    according to the WHO website, there is “no scientific evidence whatsoever that would confirm that the electronic cigarette is a safe and effective smoking cessation device. Dam those pinball wizards! Seriously though what is up with people and new things time and time again humanity is stunted by iggnorance
     
  6. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    Obviously, I am going to cite the ONLY research available: Health New Zealand.

    I use only 16mg liquid now. You know that my own observation is that no e-cig vapor has ever caused a nic reaction for me. As you have said, individual responses may vary ... For everyone who "OD'd" on vapor, though, many others have said they get essentially nothing from the vapor.

    The quote is from the official report, not correspondence. And, no, I don't care if figures have fluctuated (ALWAYS showing lower than a cig, BTW). Bottom line conclusion is the same: E-vapor at 16mg strength is not equal to tobacco smoke.
     
  7. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    UK
    TBob, that result has no merit. It is based on cartridges that magically last a day to four for one thing. It has changed twice since that quote and does not in any way say what real life people are getting. It is a flawed lab puff count based on flawed original assumptions.

    To use that as 'truth' about dosage is downright dangerous. Many people overdose with esmoking and you spreading unreliable, probably inaccurate statistics is not helping to make us educated users.

    If you even said that Dr Laugesen thinks ... blah blah ... but you don't, you imply that the only, (disputable) statistics are accurate and that they don't defy the laws of mathematics. Why do you think people overdose?
     
  8. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    The only issued clinical trial report has "no merit?"

    No further questions, counselor.
     
  9. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    UK
    Damn right TBob and if you didn't go around spreading disputable claims as fact nobody would probably have noticed. Do you not care that what you claim doesn't make sense?

    A cartridge lasts a day to four (it will if you don't vape it)
    a cig gives 1.5mg of nicotine (that's around 0.5mg more than the average I've read about)
    16mg eliquid is a good comparison for what most of us use?
    Why does the puff measurement keep changing? How was the measurement established?
    Why do people overdose?

    Before you set yourself up in judgement maybe you'd better appoint some decent defence.

    Anyway, WHO won't accept research that isn't independent and overseen by a scientific committee. There are good reasons for their caution.
     
  10. Dr. Haddad

    Dr. Haddad New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Who is going to stop me from chewing more than the recommended number of nicotine gums, yet they are FDA approved. We are adults, if you want an overdose, be my guest, otherwise smoke safely with the e-cig.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 9, 2009
    Orange County, CA
    i agree. i will say though that i dont think anyone "wants" an overdose. i believe its generally accidental. it happened to me when i first tried ecigs because i overestimated my nicotine needs because i didn't know what to expect. although i quickly realized something wasnt right and changed my dose.
     
  12. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Some newspaper reports (forget where i saw them) seemed to make the assumption that one cartridge was one cigarette and hence had far higher nicotine. Too stupid, but newspapers love scare stories, and many reporters (repeaters) are simply there to push a particular line.
     
  13. MonkeyMonk

    MonkeyMonk Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    TropicalBob and Kate, I respect you both immensely and I understand what both of you are saying, and I think the bottom line is we need to get some studies done if we are to see e-vaping survive.

    1. Who, here in the states, can do a study that will withstand scrutiny?
    2. What exactly do we want addressed in the study? What are the primary and secondary targets? (How many puffs in a cart? Is the vape safe? What's in side-vape?...)
    What will the FDA look at first?
    2. How much would a study like that cost?
    3. Will/Can the forum post an approximate cost per member donation amount and a paypal link and a goal reached banner at the top of the forum so we know how much more the forum would need collectively to get the ball rolling and a study done?
    (After thought: If FDA nixed us before we could get sufficient funds, the collection could go toward a group of polled charities)

    We all talk and we all wait like someone somewhere will or should do it. But, we are the key. Personally, I don't know who would be capable of doing a study like this. I think finding that piece of information should be first.

    (Also, I'm sorry for possibly Shanghaiing this thread. It would probably be best addressed in a new thread if any of my thoughts are viable. If they are, can someone in-the-know about the forum make a new appropriate thread. Thanks!)
     
  14. Effex132

    Effex132 Full Member

    Mar 4, 2009
    A 30ml bottle of 24mg e-liquid lasted me 3 weeks now with enough to last me a about another week. That averages out to .75 mg of nicotine a day.

    One pack of cigarettes contain - .7 x 20 = 14mg of nicotine - HUGE difference there.

    Now, granted. Different people go through different amounts of nicotine, so i'll take the worst case scenario here and say that someone goes through 30 ml of 24mg e-liquid a week (and I know no one is that addicted to nicotine, but just for numbers sake)

    So, that comes out to about - 3.5mg of nicotine a day. Still only 1/4 the total nicotine amount available in a pack of cigarettes.

    A 2 pack a day smoker goes through 28+ mg's of nicotine. That's more than the equivalent of any e-smokers nicotine inhalation, I am sure of it.

    Yes of course, you can argue that pound for pound, you might be getting more nicotine in your system with e-cigs, but that's fully dependent on the safety measures that the user takes. You don't slap on 5 28mg nicotine patches on you when you quit. You don't throw 10 pieces of 4mg nicotine gum in your mouth when you chew, and you certainly don't light up 5 cigarettes in your mouth when you smoke. It's very easy to dismiss that kind of stupidity, and it should be as easy to dismiss any type of overly stupid actions someone takes w/ e-cig liquid.

    Maybe my math is off, maybe not. But in the much greater scheme of things - It isn't about my math, or our speculations, it's about entire countries banning a device that hasn't even been tested. It's outrageous to say the least.

    dozens upon dozens of people died from Chantix, a quit smoking aid, in 2008, and left a whole mess of other people in a severe state of mental illness. It was approved by the FDA. Why? Money and it being marketable? Of course!

    It's sickening.
     
  15. MonkeyMonk

    MonkeyMonk Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    I'll message this link to the mods and maybe they can advise if the forum can get involved.
     
  16. nonamebrand

    nonamebrand Full Member

    Feb 28, 2009
    From what I've researched, the strength of the nicotine in milligrams is per milliliter. So if your bottle is 24mg in strength, that means there is 24mg per 1mL. So your 30mL bottle of 24mg nicotine strength would contain 24mg X 30mL = 720mg of nicotine in total.

    If 720mg nicotine lasts you 4 weeks (28 days) to find the amount of nicotine per day usage it'd be 720mg / 28 days = 25.7mg per day.

    So you were getting 14mg of nicotine a day from analogs, you are up to 25mg/day vaping.
     
  17. Nuck

    Nuck Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Ontario, Canada
    That makes the assumption that your body absorbs 100% of the nicotine which would be sweet but not very realistic. How much of the nicotine evaporates on contact with the air and how much is really exhaled (and evaporates)? You would also have to know how much is lost during the vaporization process.

    I suspect the levels on the bottle are much higher than what you actually absorb.
     
  18. nonamebrand

    nonamebrand Full Member

    Feb 28, 2009
    Yep I agree, very true. It's really hard to measure this sort of thing. It's hard to get it down to accurate numbers.

    Scary thing is, I'm looking at the side of a LIGHT Canadian analog cigarette pack. I see:

    Toxic Emissions / unit: Tar - 14.8 - 35.9mg
    Nicotine - 1.26 - 2.70mg

    By goodness....I would not like getting one of those 2.70mg nicotine suckers. 1.26mg seems a bit high for a light cigarette. Maybe most cigarettes are around 1.26mg...who knows...but 1.26 - 2.70mg is a lot of variance.

    I had 4 cartons of Marlboro Lights that are estimated at 0.7mg per smoke. I smoked a pack a day. I smoke a pack a day of Regular strength Canadian smokes.

    It's interesting...because in the end...I smoke as many Marlboro Lights as I smoke Light or Regular Canadian smokes.

    A lot of it is just being a habit factor.

    It's really hard to pinpoint how much nicotine we receive and require to function.
     
  19. pseudonym

    pseudonym Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2008
    Glasgow,Scotland, U.K
    TropicalBob, I've been reading posts on this site for over 2 months and I find myself shouting at the screen "listen to this guy!"

    you always make a lot of good points in your posts and still manage to convey a little humour too :D

    I am back on the real cigs but I'm still intersested to see where the ecig goes from here.
     
  20. Effex

    Effex Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 26, 2009
    NYC
    nonamebrand,

    Maybe I am missing something and you can point it out, but I don't see how nicotine content would be different from any other element? For example, a 240ml bottle of pepsi has 69 grams of sugar. If each ml were to give 69 grams, you'd be dead by the time you finish the bottle.

    Now I know you mentioned that it's nicotine specific and I'm definitely not a chemist, but I just find that very weird as I've never heard of anything like that before.

    Nuck, you also make a good point. It would be interesting to see if the body absorbs more or less nicotine via e-cig than it would with an analog. Of course the nicotine strength would have to be the same in both, etc..
     
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