Battery Safety Questions

[Cohumulone]

So, I took the time to read the exploding battery thread in the new member info, but a couple things: 1) there are too many initials, achronyms, and abbrviations for this to really be targted for new members/vapers; 2) the thread is 5 years old.

Specifically, I was reading on another thread on this forum somewhere within its vast catacombs of dead threads and someone mentioned using only the recommended charger for your mod. This is perplexing, because the couple mods that I've seen only come with a cable. This is not the charger, as most already know. So, can I use my Samsung phone charger on it? My Belkin branded car charger? How do Iknow I'm using the right charger.

Ultimately, I ran across an article about an exploding battery and it caused me to look up more, which naturally caused some paranoia.

I have a Wismec RX75 with a Samsung battery (thinking of getting the RX200s since I'm going through juice and battery several times a day). I leave it chargin overnight. Is this a no-no?

 

[speedy_r6]

So, I took the time to read the exploding battery thread in the new member info, but a couple things: 1) there are too many initials, achronyms, and abbrviations for this to really be targted for new members/vapers; 2) the thread is 5 years old.

Specifically, I was reading on another thread on this forum somewhere within its vast catacombs of dead threads and someone mentioned using only the recommended charger for your mod. This is perplexing, because the couple mods that I've seen only come with a cable. This is not the charger, as most already know. So, can I use my Samsung phone charger on it? My Belkin branded car charger? How do Iknow I'm using the right charger.

Ultimately, I ran across an article about an exploding battery and it caused me to look up more, which naturally caused some paranoia.

I have a Wismec RX75 with a Samsung battery (thinking of getting the RX200s since I'm going through juice and battery several times a day). I leave it chargin overnight. Is this a no-no?

Most people are going to tell you to get a dedicated charger(nitecore, xtar, etc). They are safer. If you get an rx200, you will absolutely need an external charger(i prefer the nitecore d4). The built in charging on the rx200 does a terrible job at balancing the cells. This can cause problems.

Now, using your phone charger will work so long as the mod cuts off when it should. If it doesnt cut off, any charger being used to charge it is going to just keep sending power and overcharge it.

That leads us to the next thing...do not charge it overnight or unattended. If something goes wrong, you dont want it to vent while you cant do something about it.

 

[Cohumulone]

Thanks for the response. Just looked up the nitecore d4 and there are many sites selling them for 19 and some for 31... what are the chances of fake ones? The old battery thread talked frequently about fake batteries.

Here's another question: someone else mentioned that you should not fire your mod shortly after charging. What's the thought behind this?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[sonicbomb]

Batteries need at least at hour rest after charging so they can cool down, and to stabilize chemically.
The best way to avoid fake batteries is to buy from a reputable dealer.

 

[Cohumulone]

Thank you. I'm assuming there is a list of reputable dealers somewhere.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[VNeil]

and someone mentioned using only the recommended charger for your mod. This is perplexing, because the couple mods that I've seen only come with a cable.

Here's another question: someone else mentioned that you should not fire your mod shortly after charging. What's the thought behind this?

The idea of using only the "recommended charger" goes back mainly to eGo styple batteries, where the charger that is sold with a particular battery has a certain current output matched to the battery. It might be possible to substitute some other higher power charger that might charge at an excessive current for that particular battery. I have no opinion as to the validity of all that, I'm just trying to explain the genesis of the caution, as best I understand it.

Regarding allowing batteries to rest, there is an observation that many battery venting incidents were associated with firing a mod with a battery fresh off the charger. On the other hand, it may be true that most battery venting incidents occur immediately after installing a battery (and/or upon first use after installing the battery) and if that is true then the "unrested battery idea" may be an invalid cause/effect conclusion.

One observation I'll make... I use an Xtar VTC4 VC4 charger, which I have been very happy with it. I have never noticed a battery to get hot at any time in the charge cycle and particularly at the end of charge. I don't obsess over charging so I'm not standing there waiting for the charger to indicate Full to immediately remove it. I often leave batteries in the charger for hours after full charge. (something many recommend not to do...). When I remove the batteries they are stone cold and I have no reason to believe that the charger is not fully cutting off the charge and therefore I think the battery is effectively "resting" once the charge is complete.

I've never even seen any specific evidence that my charger, for example, even does a maintenance trickle charge after charge is complete, unlike many NiMH chargers, for example, that do do that, but NiMH batteries self discharge much faster than Lithium batteries, and trickle charging is perhaps a useful feature with NiMH chemistry.

My charger may or may not be typical of all Li-Ion chargers. I can only speak of my own experience.

No one ever vented a mod because they let a battery rest after charging so I'm not saying these best practices should be avoided, I am just suggesting there is a decided lack of evidence behind many of them, and I wouldn't obsess or worry unnecessarily.

The vast majority of catastrophic battery failure is associated with mech mods. Not using a mech mod is the best way to avoid these problems without having to think too hard about things. And avoiding carrying lithium batteries in your pocket or a napsack, etc., without storing them in a proper protective case

 

[juicynoos]

Illumn Supply is where I get mine but there are several others as you say.
I don't know of any fake chargers, just get that from the same place you decide to get your battery's from. You will need a 4 bay charger if you plan on getting a 3 cell mod like the rx and perhaps 2 sets.
(The longer the battery's are left to rest after charging the better)

I wouldn't risk using a car charger but if you do, don't use it as a passthrough-ever!
You should remove freshly charged cells from the charger as soon as poss. Don't leave them on there as this is going to reduce their lifespan because the charger will keep trickle charging them when the voltage drops slightly (which is normal).

 

[pappcam]

Wow. The battery paranoia and misinformation is now completely out of hand.

Batteries don't need to "stabilize" for an hour after charging at all. Where did that nugget of info get made up? Leaving a battery on the charger for a while after it's fully charged isn't going to cause any issues. Any decent charger knows how to handle charging a battery and it will stop charging it when it's fully charged.

A few neckbeards mishandle some chewed up rewrapped batteries and get burned and all of a sudden people act like these batteries are ticking time bombs.

If it wasn't so annoying it would be funny.

 

[Cohumulone]

The idea of using only the "recommended charger" goes back mainly to eGo styple batteries, where the charger that is sold with a particular battery has a certain current output matched to the battery. It might be possible to substitute some other higher power charger that might charge at an excessive current for that particular battery. I have no opinion as to the validity of all that, I'm just trying to explain the genesis of the caution, as best I understand it.

Regarding allowing batteries to rest, there is an observation that many battery venting incidents were associated with firing a mod with a battery fresh off the charger. On the other hand, it may be true that most battery venting incidents occur immediately after installing a battery (and/or upon first use after installing the battery) and if that is true then the "unrested battery idea" may be an invalid cause/effect conclusion.

One observation I'll make... I use an Xtar VTC4 charger, which I have been very happy with it. I have never noticed a battery to get hot at any time in the charge cycle and particularly at the end of charge. I don't obsess over charging so I'm not standing there waiting for the charger to indicate Full to immediately remove it. I often leave batteries in the charger for hours after full charge. (something many recommend not to do...). When I remove the batteries they are stone cold and I have no reason to believe that the charger is not fully cutting off the charge and therefore I think the battery is effectively "resting" once the charge is complete.

I've never even seen any specific evidence that my charger, for example, even does a maintenance trickle charge after charge is complete, unlike many NiMH chargers, for example, that do do that, but NiMH batteries self discharge much faster than Lithium batteries, and trickle charging is perhaps a useful feature with NiMH chemistry.

My charger may or may not be typical of all Li-Ion chargers. I can only speak of my own experience.

No one ever vented a mod because they let a battery rest after charging so I'm not saying these best practices should be avoided, I am just suggesting there is a decided lack of evidence behind many of them, and I wouldn't obsess or worry unnecessarily.

The vast majority of catastrophic battery failure is associated with mech mods. Not using a mech mod is the best way to avoid these problems without having to think too hard about things. And avoiding carrying lithium batteries in your pocket or a napsack, etc., without storing them in a proper protective case

I'm looking up that charger. I can see a VP4 charger. Is this what you're referring to? Don't want to assume.

 

[AJ Steele]

I'm not sure about the validity of letting batteries rest after a charge, but I think I've read some places that some battery OEMs recommend letting them rest after use and BEFORE a charge, and that I believe concerns internal temp of the battery. I may be mistaken.

Regardless, I don't take any chances with my batteries. I have a pretty regular regimen with my batteries. What I will do is let any battery that I pull out of a device rest for 30 min before it goes on the charger. I have about nine batteries in rotation and when a battery comes off the charger it goes to the back of the line. I only have single battery devices and I'm a low wattage vaper, so a single Samsung 30Q or an LG MJ1, for example, will usually last me more than a day. This means all my batteries are resting for about 5 days or more before they rotate back into use. I try to short-cycle them once in awhile, too.

 

[Continuity]

Decent chargers from decent manufacturers (Nitecore, XTAR, LiitoKala, OPUS etc) can be had for USD$20 upwards for a 4-bay one.

Personally, I currently own a Nitecore D2, but the Nitecore 'I' range 'I2/4' is available for a few less bucks (it just doesn't have the fancy screen display of the 'D' range).

I have also used the XTAR VC4 (USD$26) which is a very decent 4-bay charger IMO.

The OPUS BT-C3100 v2.2 and BT-C2000 are widely regarded as one of the best value, more 'pro-sumer' chargers available for a few more dollars (USD$43 and USD$33 respectively) and they offer a battery cycle/test/jump start (to revive cells that have been somewhat over-discharged) feature which a lot of people find useful.

 

[AJ Steele]

Opus charger
Do want.

 

[VNeil]

I'm looking up that charger. I can see a VP4 charger. Is this what you're referring to? Don't want to assume.

Sorry, that is VC4 charger, not VTC4. Typo. I am fixing that to avoid any further confusion...

 

[retired1]

Wow. The battery paranoia and misinformation is now completely out of hand.

Batteries don't need to "stabilize" for an hour after charging at all. Where did that nugget of info get made up? Leaving a battery on the charger for a while after it's fully charged isn't going to cause any issues. Any decent charger knows how to handle charging a battery and it will stop charging it when it's fully charged.

A few neckbeards mishandle some chewed up rewrapped batteries and get burned and all of a sudden people act like these batteries are ticking time bombs.

If it wasn't so annoying it would be funny.

Letting a battery "rest" after charging is to allow it to stabilize temperature wise. And while it's not required, it is recommended to prolong the life of the battery.

 

[Baditude]

Wow. The battery paranoia and misinformation is now completely out of hand.

Batteries don't need to "stabilize" for an hour after charging at all. Where did that nugget of info get made up? Leaving a battery on the charger for a while after it's fully charged isn't going to cause any issues. Any decent charger knows how to handle charging a battery and it will stop charging it when it's fully charged.

Rolygate is the administrator of ECF. He has written scores of articles and blogs concerning e-cigarettes, battery and mod safety. His body of work speaks for itself. Pappcam, if you are such a battery expert, how many articles have you written to help educate the vaping community to be safer? The ECF Library

" Rest batteries after charging
One commonly-reported factor in almost all the incidents we hear of where batteries failed violently while in use is that they were taken directly off the charger and then used immediately, at which point they failed.

Because of this, we think it may be a good idea to rest batteries after charging them. This advice will not be found in the usual 'reference bibles' on batteries, but we see more and different reports than others. Therefore we now advise:

Do not use batteries directly after charging them. Use a battery or batteries you previously charged, and that have rested for several hours. This is especially important if using a stacked pair for higher voltage, as statistically the risk is far higher.

The benefit to resting is increased battery lifespan & minimize chance of venting. "

-- Rolygate, Warning - rechargeable batteries for APVs

The "suggestion" to rest batteries after a charge cycle seems like common sense to me. A battery that has recently received a full charge is at its most excitable and vulnerable state physically and chemically. Any stressors applied to that battery at that point may increase its potential to vent or go into thermal runaway.
​

Battery University, a world-wide recognized reference for all things concerning batteries, also hints that resting batteries before and after charging is benefitual to a battery's health.

According to this list:
E-Cigarette Explosions: Comprehensive List
There have been 50 major incidents this year (2016) alone and that's just the ones which make the news. They also go on to say...
"It is interesting to note that the nature of e-cigarette explosions has changed over the years. The FEMA document cited above suggests that approximately 80 percent of e-cigarette explosions happen during charging."

​

Battery Mooch and myself have written the below blog articles on battery safety:

Battery Basics for Mods: The Definative Battery Guide for Vaping

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries Part 1

Deeper Understanding of Mod Batteries Part 2

18650 Battery Safety Grades -- Picking a Safe Cell to Vape With

Guide to Choosing a Li-ion Battery Charger​

 

[daviedog]

Decent chargers from decent manufacturers (Nitecore, XTAR, LiitoKala, OPUS etc) can be had for USD$20 upwards for a 4-bay one.

Personally, I currently own a Nitecore D2, but the Nitecore 'I' range 'I2/4' is available for a few less bucks (it just doesn't have the fancy screen display of the 'D' range).

I have also used the XTAR VC4 (USD$26) which is a very decent 4-bay charger IMO.

The OPUS BT-C3100 v2.2 and BT-C2000 are widely regarded as one of the best value, more 'pro-sumer' chargers available for a few more dollars (USD$43 and USD$33 respectively) and they offer a battery cycle/test/jump start (to revive cells that have been somewhat over-discharged) feature which a lot of people find useful.

Bt-3400 these days,,fabulous charger, have two..

 

[retired1]

Rolygate is the administrator of ECF.

Correction. Roly is the Forum Manager.

 

[Baditude]

Correction. Roly is the Forum Manager.

My apologies, Retired1.

 

[VNeil]

On the subject of trickle charging and "removing batteries ASAP to avoid degradation", or whatever... I just did some research to refresh my memory on "trickle charging" because I think there is a great deal of confusion here. Referencing my VC4 product manual, they vaguely reference "TC mode". It states a "100ma activation/TC current" in the spec. It also suggests "automatically choose TC/VC/VV which is best charging method....". But what exactly is that "TC Mode"?

I haven't ripped my charger apart to see exactly what charge controller chip is used. If anyone has that info it would be useful. However, I did study the datasheet of a typical Li-Ion charger, the Linear Technologies LTC4056-4.2 charge controller chip. According to the datasheet that chip does have a "trickle charge mode" but it is only used to bring a below voltage (~2.8V) battery up to a voltage at which it can be either safely fast charged or flagged as faulty and any further charge attempt terminated... IOW it is a pre-charge trickle charge. There is NO reference in that datasheet to a post charge trickle charge mode.

If anyone can reference a Li-Ion charge controller chip whose datasheet does specify a post charge trickle charge then that would add to this discussion.

I would also point out that nowhere in my VC4 product manual does it suggest that batteries need to be rested after charge, or should be removed after full charge. Just because something is repeated endlessly does not make it a fact...

Notwithstanding the above, certainly it is theoretically possible that as long as a battery is sitting in a charger, "lightning could strike" (perhaps just figuratively but even literally), the charger could somehow malfunction, even if the chance is 1:1,000,000,000, and it could all go up in flames. Whether that is something to talk about endlessly is up to each of us to divine.

 

[daviedog]

The wallwort discussed earlier is NOT a charger. It is a step down transformer.

124 volt AC = 5 volt DC.
Look on back of device for current..