Bottle help with freezing nic juice

Discussion in 'Ask The Veterans' started by hairball, Nov 2, 2010.

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  1. hairball

    hairball ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Should I use glass or plastic to freeze my unflavored nic juice? I'm cutting it down into smaller containers. I have 100mg PG. I am going to cut it to 50mg for ease of use. Any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.
     
  2. Papa Lazarou

    Papa Lazarou Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    Just an FYI but propylene glycol will will not freeze to a solid in a domestic freezer - its melting point is −59 °C (−74 °F). Freezers usually operate around -18 °C (0 °F), to my knowledge, with higher power ones perhaps going to -30 °C or so. PG can be used as a safer form of antifreeze due to this property. With that in mind glass or plastic shouldn't really matter as it won't be freezing (and hence expanding to crack the container) but I've never tried it myself. Personally I would suggest just keeping it in the fridge in a tightly closed container for extended storage.
     
  3. hittman

    hittman ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I was thinking that I had read that Sun Vaporer had some liquid go bad from freezing it. If it were mine, I wouldn't freeze it.
     
  4. Papa Lazarou

    Papa Lazarou Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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  5. HighHeeledGoddess

    HighHeeledGoddess Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    I'm not sure for how long you wish it to remain in storage, but I thought I would mention I have heard of juice going bad when refrigerated and subsequently brought to room temp. I stored some Johnson's Creek juice, which is in amber bottles, in my basement on a shelf away from sun for a year and it kept just fine. JC says it has a shelf life of 6 months, but as stated mine was fine.

    I wouldn't try freezing it, but if you insist I would go with glass. Plastic can leech over time.
     
  6. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Fridge storage has been voted as the worst option in discussions among those who've tried it and/or know the implications, because there is too much vapor transmission in/out through the container structure of most types of bottle. Plastic would be the worst of all options, glass better, cobalt glass the best.

    Think how food gets ruined in a fridge when it loses flavor or gains flavor from something else in the fridge. Water vapor and flavors transfer in and out by osmosis and there is no realistic way to stop this, except perhaps by using cobalt glass containers. Freezing is theoretically a better option as it 'locks' the material. However if you can't freeze it (as with PG) then this is moot.

    Storage in a cool, dark, dry area seems the best option overall. This would mean in a box in a cool cupboard or similar. Keep dark as all the materials will degrade in light. The shelf life is 14 to 24 months and this looks sufficient for most purposes. If kept in ideal conditions then the shelf life might even be extended.
     
  7. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

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    As a professional chemist, I would recommend storing long term in glass. Nic in high concentration will slowly dissolve plastic, and PG will leach plasticizers from plastic. VG might too.

    Sun's fridge issues were with flavored juices stored six months, some of which were not even opened. I believe they were early Johnson Creek. The culprit was probably water in the JC recipe. I think decomp would have happened anyway, regardless. I do not think it was necessarily the fridge itself.

    A sealed glass bottle of unflavored nic juice will not allow water in. The only reactant here is O2, which if there is little head room is negligible. O2 is very slightly soluble in PG or VG, and will be present in trace quantities in the solution no matter what you do, but it is not enough to make any appreciable change in 100 mg juice, even if it all reacts.

    I use glass bottles from specialtybottles.com for storage of my unflavored 35-100 mg VG nic juice. The ones with eurodropper inserts, since I use them for syringe dispensing. Just stick an 18 gauge blunt needle through the center hole. With these inserts, accidental spill, which is a DISASTER with 100 mg juice, is eliminated. I use 50 mL bottles (although given how fast I go through them, I should have used 30 mL), fill them almost to the rim, put in the insert and screw on the cap.

    I store them in the freezer. As long as they are brought to room temp before opening them, the liquid will not absorb much water from the air. I pull out one bottle at a time for juice making. I just pulled out a 100 mg VG bottle stored since January, and it has not even discolored compared to the original very slightly yellow, as in VERY slightly yellow. In my freezer, PG and VG do not freeze (I have some DV PG juice stored too), nor do they expand. VG becomes VERY thick, like rubber cement at the temp of my freezer. I have not tested for nic content, but the juices I make now are in my opinion no less potent than when I got the juice fresh.

    Cool, dark, and dry is appropriate for a bottle opened and being actively used for DIY. Sealed is sealed, and extreme cold almost eliminates the kinetics of any O2 reactions and mold or bacteria growth, which is also almost eliminated by nic itself, PG or VG. I keep many 50 mL bottles in a sealed container in the freezer (actually a pet food container).

    From what I know about these chemicals, I expect the juice to last certainly much much longer than 24 months, and probably many years.

    For details and links for materials, see this thread:
    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/myfreedomsmokes/43742-smoke-juice-storage-tips.html

    This long term storage is for unflavored, and undiluted nic-juice only. I do not store flavored DIYs this way. I make them in relatively small quantities and vape them up before making more. Flavors are probably the most unstable part of e-juice, and the presence of water in them will hasten their decomposition into nasty tasting products. Fridge cold does not really change this a lot, it is dependent on the flavor itself. Fruits are especially prone, since they are esters that tend to hydrolyze to organic acids (sour, vinegar, vomit taste) and organic alcohols (wet-dog, funky taste).

    Even unfrozen, liquid PG nic-juice in the freezer will still have slower reaction kinetics than room temperature liquid. Increased viscosity, such as VG nic-juice, will further lower kinetics of reactions of nic with O2: the molecules do not move around much to find each other. But all reactions slow down with cold regardless of viscosity changes. The fact that neither of these liquids freeze solid in the freezer is good. Solid is chrystalline, and is generally not the same composition as the liquid, in other words, freezing solid will promote separations...although after it melts to room temp, it can be mixed back to original uniform composition.

    Is freezer storage overkill? Maybe. As I said, sealed is sealed, and the total reactions possible if its sealed are low. But I get a singular pleasure from taking one of those 50 mL bottles out, knowing it will be as fresh and potent as the day I bought it, even years down the line.

    Based on my decades of chemical knowledge, I do honestly think this is the best option for long-term unflavored nic-juice storage.
     
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