BWB Malty Toffee Clone

[Katcandoo]

From Don's cryptic hints, I believe it's made with EM and one flavor (toffee, but not English toffee). And he doesn't buy the toffee from any of the more well known sources. So I'll play around with %'s and flavors until I find something I like.

Thanks!

 

[Ricksha]

@Ricksha - did you ever try the Caramel Toffee from Hangsen? I've put it in my cart at BCF, since they don't carry the Lorann toffee flavors (and my curiousity about this thread is moving from idle to active).

I have not @man00ver but am very interested in its taste profile. If you buy please share any feedback.

 

[man00ver]

I have not @man00ver but am very interested in its taste profile. If you buy please share any feedback.

I think I'll get it. There are a limited number of published recipes with it, but most seem to recommend mixing quantity around 2-3% (one singleton recipe at 10%), without many comments.

Here are a couple of blokes reviewing the Hangsen e-liquid of that name, calling it a dry flavor (and noting it's a high-PG mix), not very sweet, with a mild high-quality toffee flavor in front of a caramel backnote.

 

[Katcandoo]

Just a quick update. I mixed up an attempt at this using Lindagayles recipe 2 days ago. It's steeping, but right now it smells more like caramel/butterscotch, even though it has none of those flavors in it. Time will tell.

 

[man00ver]

I've got Hangsen Caramel Toffee flavoring now (@Ricksha alert), but haven't had time to do anything with it yet. I'm hoping to make a single flavor test with it at 5%, and might just spin it into a recipe based on the "Kinda Malty Kinda Toffee" I quoted in post #4. It'll give me something to do while I wait for your mix's test, @Katcandoo....

 

[Katcandoo]

Another update:

No more BWB Malty Toffee left, so I had to get my clone attempt out of the steeping bin. It's not bad, but it's not Malty Toffee. Palatable, but not as sweet; too heavy on the English Toffee. I think maybe English Toffee has more of a semi-sweet flavor than regular toffee???

Don practically said it was only 2 ingredients - toffee and ME. The trick is in the % of each and his flavor supplier.

Back to the mixing table!

 

[Katcandoo]

Another update: after vaping the 10 ml I made of the recipe I first posted, I'm convinced there is no vanilla or buttercream in BWB Malty Toffee. My second attempt using only VG Toffee and EM is steeping. It already smells more like Malty Toffee, although the color is darker than it should be. Probably too heavy on the Toffee and too light on the EM. Maybe the sweetener does need to go as high as 30%!

@Dkrom68, I know you still frequent ECF forums! I will gladly trade my first born child for the original recipe! Although, you may not want her - she comes with a ton of student loans.

 

[Katcandoo]

The second attempt using 15% VG Toffee and 10% EM was horrid.

For the record, I'm using DIYFS.

I'm on my third batch, and making progress!! I went with 10% PG English Toffee, and 10% EM. It's the closest so far, but not quite sweet enough. I should've started with this as a baseline in the first place, then add or adjust as needed.

The issue I'm having now, is the PG/VG ratio. As a new DIYer, I started with a nic base of 50/50. I thought it's right in the middle so should be easy to manipulate, right? Not so much. Lol! To get the 70 VG/30 PG ratio, the calculation calls for adding a negative amount of PG. Hmmm. Not sure how to do that. So, I redid the calculation to 50/50. I didn't realize how fast the PG adds up in the flavors and nic base. I'll need to up the VG in my nic base. But I'm getting there!

You live, you learn.

 

[IDJoel]

I went with 10% PG English Toffee, and 10% EM.{edit by @IDJoel}

The issue I'm having now, is the PG/VG ratio. As a new DIYer, I started with a nic base of 50/50. I thought it's right in the middle so should be easy to manipulate, right? Not so much. Lol! To get the 70 VG/30 PG ratio, the calculation calls for adding a negative amount of PG. Hmmm.

Not too surprising. with the 10%+10% recipe you are already maxed out at a 20PG/80VG mix if you only add VG. Depending on the nicotine strength (mg/mL) of your 50/50 mix (I'm guessing less than 100mg/mL), and your desired target strength, I can readily see you not being able to reach a 30PG/70VG blend.

I imagine I don't need to offer the "helpful tip" to buy your nic in a straight VG base in the future (if you expect to want to keep mixing high VG blends). Also, a higher nic level (such as 100mg/mL) will help to limit how much nic concentrate (regardless of base composition) is necessary in any given recipe, and therefore affect the overall blend ratio less.

(BTW: I fully understand... and respect... an individual choosing to work with lower concentrations of nicotine. And I do not mock anyone's choice to do so. Safety First! Just about everything else DIY can be fixed; aside from someone's health. If you are not comfortable with the idea... DON'T DO IT!)

 

[man00ver]

I didn't realize how fast the PG adds up in the flavors and nic base. I'll need to up the VG in my nic base. But I'm getting there!

Another thought: you could get crystalline EM and dissolve it yourself. I'm not sure if it's miscible in VG, but it's worth a try in a heated batch. I'm sure it would mix at 15% or above in warm PG, so you could reduce it from 10% to about 6% of your e-liquid recipe....

 

[IDJoel]

Another thought: you could get crystalline EM and dissolve it yourself. I'm not sure if it's miscible in VG, but it's worth a try in a heated batch. I'm sure it would mix at 15% or above in warm PG, so you could reduce it from 10% to about 6% of your e-liquid recipe....

You are absolutely right! I was interested in saving money in my early days of DIY (STOP LAUGHING!!!... ) and looked at diluting my own EM crystals. A bit of google searching and I found several in-depth discussions that looked at PGA, PG, and VG, as carrier/diluting agents.

I don't recall the specific numbers (percentages) but I remember that PGA would solvate more EM than PG, and PG would solvate more EM than VG. VG does not have the ability to suspend as much EM as PG, or PGA, but it is certainly doable. Google "dilute ethyl maltol in VG" and you should find specific numbers, as well as methods, for the best approach if this is up your alley (I was too lazy... to make my own OR look it up now).

 

[Katcandoo]

Thank you for all the help! My nic base is 48 mg in a 50/50. Luckily, it's a small amount of volume since it came in a starter kit. I'm aiming for a final product of 12 mg nic.
My next order will be in max VG.

I didn't buy a lot because I'm just dipping my toe into DIY to see if I want to actually get in the pool. I know it's a learning process!

 

[IDJoel]

Thank you for all the help! My nic base is 48 mg in a 50/50. Luckily, it's a small amount of volume since it came in a starter kit. I'm aiming for a final product of 12 mg nic.

Yep. Using 48mg/mL nic in a 50/50 base, and a 12mg/mL target goal; anything you mix will require 25% of the total volume to be the nicotine concentrate.

Half of 25% is 12.5% so you are committing 12.5% of every mix to PG and 12.5% to VG with the nic base alone. Add to that (from the recipe you shared above) 20% of PG flavor concentrates, and your PG percentage is now up to a total of 32.5%. That would leave you with a max VG potential of 67.5% (12.5% from the nice base plus an additional 55% of plain VG).

Now, only for the purpose of comparing, this is what it would look like if you were to do the exact same thing with 100mg/mL nic in a 50/50 base:
100mg/mL with a 12mg/mL target = 12% total volume (6% PG total volume + 6% VG total volume)
+ 20% PG flavor concentrates = 26% total PG volume
leaving max VG potential of 74%

The same recipe using 100mg/mL nic in a VG only base and you would have a max VG potential of 80%. I should also note that you have the same 80% VG potential using 48mg/mL nic in VG only base. You are just using more than twice as much.

I am NOT suggesting that you increase your nicotine concentrate strength unless, and until, you feel like you are ready to do so safely. There is nothing wrong with doing it the way you are right now. I only hope to show you options available to you to affect your PG/VG ratio.

My next order will be in max VG.

That sounds like a smart plan if you wish to mix higher VG ratios.

I didn't buy a lot because I'm just dipping my toe into DIY to see if I want to actually get in the pool. I know it's a learning process!

Nothing wrong with that at all. It is never a bad thing to not commit a lot of money on something you are not sure about. I believe "slow and steady" will give more positive results for most folks that are new to DIY.

First, learn what you like, what works for you, and then you can look to saving more by buying in larger quantities. No one likes to get stuck with a bunch of stuff they don't want to/can't vape.

I applaud your self-control!

 

[Katcandoo]

Wow, thanks for the explanation! My journey started with attempting to replicate Backwoods Brew's Malty Toffee, since it has been my daily vape for years and they went out of business recently, but I'd be happy if I made an acceptable substitute. FTR, I drip almost exclusively, and build my own coils at 1.0-1.2 ohms. When I'm out and about, I'm a simple gal with a Kanger Protank 2 and something fruity.

BWB's Malty and Malty Toffee were the ONLY two ejuices that were 30PG/70VG in their entire inventory. You even had to check the box affirming you were aware they were 70% VG before checking out your cart.

I figure there has to be a reason they are that high in VG - which is OK with me. Any PG higher than ~30-40% causes me to break out in hives. I learned that the hard way! When I first started vaping 4 years ago, it was at 80PG/20VG, because that was the default mix at the online vendor where I bought my juice. After a lot of research, trial and error, and Benadryl I realized I have a minor PG intolerance. I had no idea at the beginning I could change the PG/VG ratio when ordering. I keep PG at 50% or more to be on the safe side. I also can't do max VG, because it causes my lungs to become heavy and I wheeze.

Gee whiz, this is much more complicated than opening a pack of Marlboro's and lighting up. But so much more worth it!!! But I digress.

Getting back to my original topic.... Don (the BWB mixmaster) has hinted very strongly about the ingredients. Malty is almost certainly made of only a high % of Ethyl Maltol (EM), nic, and PG/VG. Hence the name Malty. He's practically said Malty Toffee is only two flavors, which I interpret as the base being the original Malty ejuice, and adding Toffee. The key is percentages and flavor vendor.

I've only been mixing 10 ml batches as experiments. The first one, with 5 flavors + EM (VG Toffee, English Toffee, Vanilla, Holy Vanilla, and Buttercream) that I found on a search wasn't even close. The second 10 ml batch of 15% VG Toffee and 10% EM was almost unvapable. I poured most of it down the sink. Bleh!!!

This last batch was 15 ml consisting of 10% PG English Toffee and 10% EM - the closest so far! But still not quite right. After vaping a few so-so ml, I added 1 gram of Sweetness Sweetener (DIYFS), and BAM! There it is!!!

It's not quite Malty Toffee, but damn! It's better!!! Malty Toffee was satisfying, in the way Marlboros were. But I always wanted more. To me, the flavor was....elusive?

But this batch puts it out of the ballpark, and would give @Dkrom68 a run for his money.

 

[man00ver]

VERY HAPPY FOR YOU, @Katcandoo!

OK, I'm going to spin this up tonight just to see what happens (small bottle of course)...

Kinda Malty Toffee (adapted):
6% Caramel Toffee (Hangsen)
9% Cotton Candy (10% EM/Ethyl Maltol) (TPA)
1% Sweetener (Sucralose) (TPA)
Flavor total: 16%

As previously mentioned, I have ZERO basis for comparison, so this'll be a total shot in the dark for me. Hold my beer....

 

[Katcandoo]

Here's another update! I've played around with my mixes and I've learned some valuable information. The toffee is definitely PG English Toffe and not VG Toffee. I've tried keeping the EM at 10%, while adding other flavors such as whipped cream (so-so), sugar cookie (also so-so), and coconut pound cake (sounded good but was disgusting), to explore flavor combinations while keeping the EM to a minimum. 30% EM which was in the recipe I found seemed way too high.

All these combinations caused my rayon wick to turn dark brown and literally disintegrate within a couple of days. BWB never did that. I went back to simple PG English Toffee and EM. This most recent 12 mg, 30 ml batch is very good, at 15% EM and 12% English Toffee. After a couple of days, my wick is still white, so I'm on the right track. It's still not as clean as BWB Malty Toffee. It has a minor fuzzy(?) taste. I attribute that to the 50/50 blend I make instead of 30/70. Once I finish using my 50/50 nic base, I'll get more in a VG base to fix that. I'm too broke to buy more before I finish what I have. Lol!

Thank you to everyone who gave advice!!!!

 

[Katcandoo]

VERY HAPPY FOR YOU, @Katcandoo!

OK, I'm going to spin this up tonight just to see what happens (small bottle of course)...

Kinda Malty Toffee (adapted):
6% Caramel Toffee (Hangsen)
9% Cotton Candy (10% EM/Ethyl Maltol) (TPA)
1% Sweetener (Sucralose) (TPA)
Flavor total: 16%

As previously mentioned, I have ZERO basis for comparison, so this'll be a total shot in the dark for me. Hold my beer....

How did that turn out? Curious to hear!

 

[man00ver]

How did that turn out? Curious to hear!

I had too many partial bottles of older mixes piling up, so I sort of banned myself from vaping anything newer until all the 6-month-plus bottles are gone. So, it's been sitting there, shelved at eye level and piquing my curiosity too. It smells interesting. My clean-up project has a few weeks to go, but maybe I'll make an exception and slip that one in for a tryout. I'll let you know!

 

[man00ver]

@Katcandoo - this:

Kinda Malty Toffee (adapted):
6% Caramel Toffee (Hangsen)
9% Cotton Candy (10% EM/Ethyl Maltol) (TPA)
1% Sweetener (Sucralose) (TPA)
Flavor total: 16%

...I can't rate it any higher than just OK. I can taste the toffee flavor and it seems very good (my standalone tester of that flavoring is still waiting for me), but I think the high EM is stepping on it with a rather bland cotton-candy effect. Oddly, the mix not very sweet at all. I'll have no trouble finishing the 15mL bottle, but the recipe is not very compelling for me. I'm much more interested in pairing the HS toffee with other things (cake, coffee, nuts, butterscotch, cream/custard and such).

 

[listopencil]

I just grabbed two 100 ml bottles from The Sauce LA for a total of $20 on a BOGO sale. Caramel Waffle Cappuccino and Vanilla Bean Cream - 80/20 @ 6 nic. They taste like a Starbucks drink. If you want something that is more like that and less like an actual cup of coffee, I recommend both.