Can non-smokers that vape potentially lead to real cigarettes?

[Zakillah]

Not for a long time.
Long enough most of us go on for years, even decades denying it can happen to us.
Even then, real devastation isn't guaranteed.

Well, that's one way to see it.
Not every smoker gets struck down by a stroke or develops lung cancer, alright. But there are clear markers that you´re a smoker, lower Oxygen blood levels, as just one example.
Sure depends on how you wanna look at it; but the point is kinda mood as almost no drug is "guarantied to kill" you; not even the strong stuff.

 

[beckdg]

Well, that's one way to see it.
Not every smoker gets struck down by a stroke or develops lung cancer, alright. But there are clear markers that you´re a smoker, lower Oxygen blood levels, as just one example.
Sure depends on how you wanna look at it; but the point is kinda mood as almost no drug is "guarantied to kill" you; not even the strong stuff.

You're shooting past the point of what you're quoting.

How can one use that to define addiction if the markers don't show up for 20, 40, even 60 years, if ever?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[mattiem]

This seems to come up every 2 or 3 months. Someone comes along that has a very hard time separating smoking and nicotine. Studies have shown that nicotine minus smoking does not lead to a dependence on nicotine. Once they wrap their head around that fact they finally see the light. We that smoked will most likely always have that little voice in the back of our brain trying to convince us that just one smoke won't hurt us. Problem is, once we get that smoking monkey off our back, with vaping, that cigarette just tastes nasty.

 

[Lessifer]

You're shooting past the point of what you're quoting.

How can one use that to define addiction if the markers don't show up for 20, 40, even 60 years, if ever?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

There's no real "definition" for addiction, it's a psychology thing, so soft science. To me, "clear harm" is best if it's recognized by the person doing it, but that's not always the case. An alcoholic who doesn't have a bad liver and has never run someone over is still an alcoholic.

Society views smoking as harmful to your health, whether that's true or not, it's something that's "known."

DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Substance Dependence
A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

1. Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
   • a. a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
   • b. markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
2. Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
   • a. the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria set for opioid withdrawal)
   • b. the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
4. There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.
5. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects.
6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
7. The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance.

Specify if:
With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal

Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal


For most people I'd say smoking fits in there, and nicotine for most of us is part of the treatment. There's no evidence that nicotine use, in a non-tobacco user, would develop into dependence. That's something I'm sure you, I, and many others on this forum will continually have to try to inform people about.

 

[beckdg]

There's no real "definition" for addiction, it's a psychology thing, so soft science. To me, "clear harm" is best if it's recognized by the person doing it, but that's not always the case. An alcoholic who doesn't have a bad liver and has never run someone over is still an alcoholic.

Society views smoking as harmful to your health, whether that's true or not, it's something that's "known."

DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Substance Dependence
A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

1. Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
   • a. a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
   • b. markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
2. Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
   • a. the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria set for opioid withdrawal)
   • b. the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
4. There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.
5. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects.
6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
7. The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance.

Specify if:
With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal

Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal


For most people I'd say smoking fits in there, and nicotine for most of us is part of the treatment. There's no evidence that nicotine use, in a non-tobacco user, would develop into dependence. That's something I'm sure you, I, and many others on this forum will continually have to try to inform people about.

I don't consider psychology any more of a science than it was when hair dressers had control of it and performed frontal labotomies.

As evidenced above, their best is a guess based on symptoms.

At which point their treatment is trial and error at the peril of their "patient".

Meanwhile, we actually have knowledge of the chemical effects of addiction on the brain.

Yet this is how they define it and assess it, with an added educated guess like a TSA agent trying to pinpoint the perp with the illegal substance in his carry on.

But yes, I agree, smoking is definitely addictive.

And education will be an ongoing uphill battle.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[Lessifer]

I don't consider psychology any more of a science than it was when hair dressers had control of it and performed frontal labotomies.

As evidenced above, their best is a guess based on symptoms.

At which point their treatment is trial and error at the peril of their "patient".

Meanwhile, we actually have knowledge of the chemical effects of addiction on the brain.

Yet this is how they define it and assess it, with an added educated guess like a TSA agent trying to pinpoint the perp with the illegal substance in his carry on.

But yes, I agree, smoking is definitely addictive.

And education will be an ongoing uphill battle.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Hey now, I spent good money for that degree and I didn't even learn to cut hair.

 

[Robino1]

Studies have shown that nicotine minus smoking does not lead to a dependence on nicotine.

This bears repeating.... over and over again.

If you take Cigarettes and Smoking out of the equation, Non Smokers or Non Tobacco users do not lead to a Dependence on nicotine.

(no matter how I edit the above, it still doesn't sound grammatically correct. I give up)

If someone smokes cigarettes even occasionally, their addiction to nic is already in place. Even if they think they are not addicted. Something in cigarettes is addicting.

 

[Smoke_too_much]

Anything can lead to cig smoking. The only important question is what can lead away from it.

 

[Lessifer]

This bears repeating.... over and over again.

If you take Cigarettes and Smoking out of the equation, Non Smokers or Non Tobacco users do not lead to a Dependence on nicotine.

(no matter how I edit the above, it still doesn't sound grammatically correct. I give up)

If someone smokes cigarettes even occasionally, their addiction to nic is already in place. Even if they think they are not addicted. Something in cigarettes is addicting.

It's that lead to bit that trips people up, I think. They say, of course nicotine is addictive, I smoked for decades and the only thing keeping me from smoking now is my nicotine. The order of events is very important in this case.

Tobacco Control has done their job well though, so I'm sure we'll be explaining this one for decades to come.

 

[BackDoc]

Addiction is for life.

Nicotine as a successful replacement and dependency may eliminate that side effect.

May be a better alternative to wean down your nic and make quit attempts over time.

While still keeping your gear.

Hide it in a safe or give it to a neighbor if necessary.

Quitters flu is your addiction taking over. Your body adjusting to what your brain is doing to it.

The mind is a wondrous thing. Something in your life may have triggered some negative emotions which kick started an imbalance.

The Chinese had it right for centuries.

The western world is just now figuring it out little by little.

Most are still deniers.

The mind and body are intertwined.

The body feeds the brain. Glucose, healthy fat (Yes, the brain needs both to live and function.), rich oxygen, etc.

The mind then uses what it has to attempt to find balance chemically. All the while firing pulses constantly that control your everything.

Poison or alter it, and eventually, not necessarily announced, and likely when it's at its weakest, it's going to strike back.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Great post!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

If someone smokes cigarettes even occasionally, their addiction to nic is already in place. Even if they think they are not addicted. Something in cigarettes is addicting.

This is my opinion based on my knowledge and experience more than anything but anyways...

When it comes to cigarettes it's a combination of things that creates the addiction, first of all MAOI's actually make you happy so you basically want to do it in the first place, then there is the stimulant effects of nicotine that you can have withdrawals from (like caffeine) then comes the additives a major one being ammonia, ammonia makes the nicotine hit you harder and also makes it leave your system faster making withdrawals more intense. Now there's the habit/rituals, smoke after dinner, smoke and a coffee, hey I'm going to pick up my lunch I'll have a smoke on my way, over time they build up and when you stop doing them there's a void you need to fill which is why I think so many people turn to food because of the hand to mouth movement.

Anyways, I think vaping works so well opposed to NRT's especially for long term smokers is because it covers two of the bases, the nicotine on demand solves the withdrawals, when you have a craving you just vape until it's gone(normal NRT's don't help with intense cravings), then it also covers the ritualistic/habit side of things, vape and a coffee, vape break etc.

If it ever came to the point where doctors were prescribing/recommending it to people personally at first I think it would be smart to prescribe a anti-depressant with it or even create a prescription only e-liquid that contains small amounts of anti-depressants then ween them off the antidepressants but keep the nicotine then if they wish to ween themselves off of nicotine they can choose to do that later..

Without the antidepressant based on my theory vaping is definitely the most effective strategy to date, and if like me you've researched the crap out of it and along the way you've heard someone say we need to figure out a way to make them more effective than they are I think at this point because tech has come pretty far, there's a vape that suits everyone out there would be the addition of AD's for the initial quit attempt since it would cover all 3 bases.

 

[Lessifer]

This is my opinion based on my knowledge and experience more than anything but anyways...

When it comes to cigarettes it's a combination of things that creates the addiction, first of all MAOI's actually make you happy so you basically want to do it in the first place, then there is the stimulant effects of nicotine that you can have withdrawals from (like caffeine) then comes the additives a major one being ammonia, ammonia makes the nicotine hit you harder and also makes it leave your system faster making withdrawals more intense. Now there's the habit/rituals, smoke after dinner, smoke and a coffee, hey I'm going to pick up my lunch I'll have a smoke on my way, over time they build up and when you stop doing them there's a void you need to fill which is why I think so many people turn to food because of the hand to mouth movement.

Anyways, I think vaping works so well opposed to NRT's especially for long term smokers is because it covers two of the bases, the nicotine on demand solves the withdrawals, when you have a craving you just vape until it's gone(normal NRT's don't help with intense cravings), then it also covers the ritualistic/habit side of things, vape and a coffee, vape break etc.

If it ever came to the point where doctors were prescribing/recommending it to people personally at first I think it would be smart to prescribe a anti-depressant with it or even create a prescription only e-liquid that contains small amounts of anti-depressants then ween them off the antidepressants but keep the nicotine then if they wish to ween themselves off of nicotine they can choose to do that later..

Without the antidepressant based on my theory vaping is definitely the most effective strategy to date, and if like me you've researched the crap out of it and along the way you've heard someone say we need to figure out a way to make them more effective than they are I think at this point because tech has come pretty far, there's a vape that suits everyone out there would be the addition of AD's for the initial quit attempt since it would cover all 3 bases.

In the US I think it is crucial for vaping to remain a consumer product, and not a smoking addiction treatment.

Doesn't mean people can't talk about how vaping helped them quit, but adding MAOI's to make it a more effective treatment, that's a dangerous area.

 

[beckdg]

This is my opinion based on my knowledge and experience more than anything but anyways...

When it comes to cigarettes it's a combination of things that creates the addiction, first of all MAOI's actually make you happy so you basically want to do it in the first place, then there is the stimulant effects of nicotine that you can have withdrawals from (like caffeine) then comes the additives a major one being ammonia, ammonia makes the nicotine hit you harder and also makes it leave your system faster making withdrawals more intense. Now there's the habit/rituals, smoke after dinner, smoke and a coffee, hey I'm going to pick up my lunch I'll have a smoke on my way, over time they build up and when you stop doing them there's a void you need to fill which is why I think so many people turn to food because of the hand to mouth movement.

Anyways, I think vaping works so well opposed to NRT's especially for long term smokers is because it covers two of the bases, the nicotine on demand solves the withdrawals, when you have a craving you just vape until it's gone(normal NRT's don't help with intense cravings), then it also covers the ritualistic/habit side of things, vape and a coffee, vape break etc.

If it ever came to the point where doctors were prescribing/recommending it to people personally at first I think it would be smart to prescribe a anti-depressant with it or even create a prescription only e-liquid that contains small amounts of anti-depressants then ween them off the antidepressants but keep the nicotine then if they wish to ween themselves off of nicotine they can choose to do that later..

Without the antidepressant based on my theory vaping is definitely the most effective strategy to date, and if like me you've researched the crap out of it and along the way you've heard someone say we need to figure out a way to make them more effective than they are I think at this point because tech has come pretty far, there's a vape that suits everyone out there would be the addition of AD's for the initial quit attempt since it would cover all 3 bases.

I have a very serious problem with your anti-depressant theory.

Anti-depressants are the most unethical "medical" practice currently used.

If there's any phrase I never want to hear again, it's "we'll start with this, come back next week, we'll reassess and see how that's working for you and go from there"

Really?

That's a science?!?!

Of medicine?!?!?!

And half these arrogant idiots don't even do the actual science!!!!!

You know... the NECESSARY blood tests that confirm healthy liver function before, during and after treatment.

But yeah... after we give vaping up to BT, we should let them decide what's a normal dosage and just put it in every "starter kit".

No...

Just NO!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[SteveS45]

I just want VG/PG Nicotine and flavors in my e-Liquids and I do not want anything added to it.

 

[Lessifer]

I have a very serious problem with your anti-depressant theory.

Anti-depressants are the most unethical "medical" practice currently used.

If there's any phrase I never want to hear again, it's "we'll start with this, come back next week, we'll reassess and see how that's working for you and go from there"

Really?

That's a science?!?!

Of medicine?!?!?!

And half these arrogant idiots don't even do the actual science!!!!!

You know... the NECESSARY blood tests that confirm healthy liver function before, during and after treatment.

But yeah... after we give vaping up to BT, we should let them decide what's a normal dosage and just put it in every "starter kit".

No...

Just NO!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

To be fair, that's the same method my pcp is using to figure out my bp medicine. I'm on combination number three right now and going in Monday to have him change it again.

With vaping, and smoking cessation though you'd think people would understand by now that there is no best method. Each addiction is different. The reason vaping as it is works so well for so many is the fact that it can be customized. It will never work for all people and the means for it to be "more effective" are already there, but it can take effort.

 

[SteveS45]

The more I think about adding AD's to e-Liquids is something the FD Friggin A would love to have because then it would really fall under their jurisdiction wouldn't it?

 

[beckdg]

To be fair, that's the same method my pcp is using to figure out my bp medicine. I'm on combination number three right now and going in Monday to have him change it again.

Big point:

Although, the approach sounds to be medicinal, which is wrong in the first place...

Regardless, they actually know your blood pressure isn't right through testing and definitive quantitative data.

At least they're not guessing what the problem is before just throwing random treatment at you.

There's a clear goal and starting point.

Unlike psych patients where when the treatment fails, they adjust the diagnosis and start guessing all over.

Ask me how i know...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[Lessifer]

Big point:

Although, the approach sounds to be medicinal, which is wrong in the first place...

Regardless, they actually know your blood pressure isn't right through testing and definitive qualitative data.

At least they're not guessing what the problem is before just throwing random treatment at you.

There's a clear goal and starting point.

Unlike psych patients where when the treatment fails, they adjust the diagnosis and start guessing all over.

Ask me how i know...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Oh, I know. I wasn't joking about the degree earlier, though it's not my field of work now. I've also got a wife with a "difficult" diagnosis, so yeah.

Some day they may develop tests to screen for particular imbalances, and actually tailor the medication to that, but it's not what happens now.

That being said, anti depressants are over prescribed in our society. It sickens me that someone thought it was a good idea to use them to treat smoking addiction. The lessening of the desire to smoke is a side effect, and psychological side effects are not something people should be taking lightly, especially one that is averting a desire. Very slippery slope.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

But yeah... after we give vaping up to BT, we should let them decide what's a normal dosage and just put it in every "starter kit".

No...

Just NO!

I don't mean it like that at all, and a consumer product is the best way to go but I look at it like this..

I can buy aspirin, tylenol and ibuprofen without a prescription but more heavy pain killers can't be "legally" bought without that prescription...

I see vaping as a viable delivery mechanism for more than just nicotine, the speed at which it enters our blood stream without the need for a needle is just insane compared to other methods.

 

[littlewierdo]

Not for a long time.

Long enough most of us go on for years, even decades denying it can happen to us.

Even then, real devastation isn't guaranteed.



Oh, but you did attack.
Based on the assumption that someone attacked your opinion.

I once shared that opinion.

Everything we knew about nicotine was based off of tobacco not that long ago.

We didn't have much choice.

If the knowledge and evidence available isn't enough to change your mind, I don't know what to tell you.

However, replace "nicotine" in your post with "eating monkey ...." and it makes just as much sense and holds just as much water.

Please do understand, you don't have the option of experiencing any level of isolated nicotine addiction for you're already addicted to cigarettes.

You're already tainted.

As am I.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

When did I attack?

Whatever. You want to continue to tell people something that isnt true, fine. I cant stop you. Frankly, I dont have the time or the energy to go round and round over something that was established years ago.