Can non-smokers that vape potentially lead to real cigarettes?

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VintageModMan

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My wife and I talked about this today because we vape around our almost 2 year old and I equate it to this being an ex smoker on 0 nic is I would rather her do this and see vaping as normal and know how good it taste, smells and how better it is for you. Than anologs are. I think she would choose vaping over smoking.

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Eskie

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Which is why we have to rely on studies on nicotine that focus on things other than addiction, like treatment for tourette's, and the observation that the non-smoker's in these studies did not develop dependence on nicotine. Makes for less than ideal sample sizes, but it's what we have.

To some degree, but if someone already has some brain abnormality going on, drawing conclusions on normal brain activity would be difficult. That's where the mice come in. If a mouse can put great effort into obtaining nicotine as a reward, then showing the substance has a physical withdrawal syndrome both on observation and clinical tests, that stuff is likely addictive. And remember, the mouse is getting nicotine only, not taking drags off a Marlboro filter. The fact the knockout gene mice also supports a physiological basis both for their behavior patterns, as well mimicking similar receptors in similar locations in people.
 
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Fad

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I think she would choose vaping over smoking.

Quite.

Let`s put is this way, I don`t give a flying f**** about kids or their lungs or whatever and it`s most certainly a parents decision about what they allow into their own kids lungs...

but you know what...if I had a kid I wouldn`t let people smoke, or vape in front of my child.
 

Lessifer

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As to the OP, anyone can choose to start smoking. The research so far does not suggest that vaping would lead to a nicotine dependence. Anecdotal evidence, and there is plenty of it, suggests that smoking is a much less pleasant experience for most people than vaping.
Just putting this here for now, this is my first post on the subject of nicotine dependence in this thread.
 

littlewierdo

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I just saw this in another thread. While the purpose of this linked thread below is to debunk vaping as being unhealthy studies, the same could be applied to any study. Studies must be repeatable, verifiable (and should be verified), peer reviewed (and verified), and funding verified. Your subjects should also include a variety of different sample types with a large enough diversity to provide decent results. As an aspiring scientist, I can tell you, most of the studies I have seen on vaping fail at least one of these qualifications, if not the majority of them.

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Canadian_Vaper

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I find it interesting that through the course of this thread, no scientific papers showing proper, large scale studies have been linked showing the argument that nicotine is not addictive at all. There have been links to web articles where information has not been sourced, but nothing based on the realm of science.
There's no actual proof it's addictive on it's own, from what I've read it was hard to get rats to self administer it on it's own without additives, I can't find the other study I read but here's one I had bookmarked..

Read the study and then ask yourself, would we be self administering nicotine if the additives weren't there in the first place? or is it a combination of the additives and the nicotine that create the initial addiction then are we inclined to maintain it?

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats | Journal of Neuroscience
 
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VintageModMan

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Quite.

Let`s put is this way, I don`t give a flying f**** about kids or their lungs or whatever and it`s most certainly a parents decision about what they allow into their own kids lungs...

but you know what...if I had a kid I wouldn`t let people smoke, or vape in front of my child.
Not sure if that was a stab or not but I'm not going to hid anything from my child so that later in life it's a shameful action. I find nothing wrong with vaping. I use 0 nic. It's non addictive. Yes studies are still being done however from the data provided so far second hand vape doesn't seem to be an issue.

I love my daughter and I love my family if I thought it would be harmful I wouldn't do it or do it around them. A difference of opinion I suppose.

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Opinionated

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Not sure if that was a stab or not but I'm not going to hid anything from my child so that later in life it's a shameful action. I find nothing wrong with vaping. I use 0 nic. It's non addictive. Yes studies are still being done however from the data provided so far second hand vape doesn't seem to be an issue.

I love my daughter and I love my family if I thought it would be harmful I wouldn't do it or do it around them. A difference of opinion I suppose.

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I think your doing fine, and your correct about the air studies. Even if people are using nicotine it's not going out in any measurable quantity in the expelled vapor..

Vapor is not the same as second hand smoke, not by a long shot.. I would (and have) vaped around my grandchildren without worry as a result.
 

Lessifer

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I'll just put this out there. Is this how the vaping industry wants to be perceived?

I believe nicotine is not addictive, or at least not any more "addictive" than caffeine. I believe that cigarettes and tobacco are addictive, and that nicotine may play a role when consumed in conjunction with other compounds in tobacco.

Here's the thing, if it's true that first time, non-tobacco users will develop a dependence to nicotine vaping, that is something that should be addressed. Although, with relatively little to no harm associated with vaping, I'm not sure to what extent there needs to be "protection." If it's not true, which I do wholeheartedly believe, for the vast majority of people, then we need to be getting that information out there. Not to bring in more users, but to pull the rug out from under the "arguments" against vaping.

The tobacco control stance against vaping is built on a foundation of protecting never smokers/vapers from a potential addiction to a harmful habit. If the habit is not harmful, and doesn't lead to addiction, then none of their actions are justified. Then they really are condemning millions to smoking related diseases and death, for no reason.
 

Robino1

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I believe nicotine is not addictive, or at least not any more "addictive" than caffeine. I believe that cigarettes and tobacco are addictive, and that nicotine may play a role when consumed in conjunction with other compounds in tobacco.

Here's the thing, if it's true that first time, non-tobacco users will develop a dependence to nicotine vaping, that is something that should be addressed. Although, with relatively little to no harm associated with vaping, I'm not sure to what extent there needs to be "protection." If it's not true, which I do wholeheartedly believe, for the vast majority of people, then we need to be getting that information out there. Not to bring in more users, but to pull the rug out from under the "arguments" against vaping.

The tobacco control stance against vaping is built on a foundation of protecting never smokers/vapers from a potential addiction to a harmful habit. If the habit is not harmful, and doesn't lead to addiction, then none of their actions are justified. Then they really are condemning millions to smoking related diseases and death, for no reason.

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Topwater Elvis

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Yeah, well, your mamma don't dance and your daddy don't rock & roll.

So obviously, nicotine is the devil or at least supplied by him or her.

The only 'studies' that show nicotine by itself / separated from tobacco use as any more addictive or detrimental than caffeine to a reasonably healthy human body are old anti smoking & newer anti vaping hit pieces.
A.K.A ANTZ propaganda.
 

Eskie

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I believe nicotine is not addictive, or at least not any more "addictive" than caffeine. I believe that cigarettes and tobacco are addictive, and that nicotine may play a role when consumed in conjunction with other compounds in tobacco.

Here's the thing, if it's true that first time, non-tobacco users will develop a dependence to nicotine vaping, that is something that should be addressed. Although, with relatively little to no harm associated with vaping, I'm not sure to what extent there needs to be "protection." If it's not true, which I do wholeheartedly believe, for the vast majority of people, then we need to be getting that information out there. Not to bring in more users, but to pull the rug out from under the "arguments" against vaping.

The tobacco control stance against vaping is built on a foundation of protecting never smokers/vapers from a potential addiction to a harmful habit. If the habit is not harmful, and doesn't lead to addiction, then none of their actions are justified. Then they really are condemning millions to smoking related diseases and death, for no reason.

Oh, I think there is a difference in interpretation in what I was stating. I was referring to nicotine by itself, not in relation to vaping. I do not believe vaping is a "gateway" to tobacco. I also doubt many folks who might try vaping with nicotine in it will become addicted to nicotine. There are too many variables both in the propensity towards nicotine addiction in an individual combined with the method of delivery.

A cigarette is an excellent delivery system for nicotine with rapid absorption and high levels peaking rather quickly before getting metabolized. Chewing tobacco, which is not combusted, also provides high absorption although not as fast as a cigarette. And we know tobacco addiction in that setting also occurs without the need to "burn" the tobacco and create any additional products created by burning.

The rate of absorption with patches and gums is rather slow in comparison to tobacco delivery, and is why low levels of dependence are seen even in folks who are not tobacco users. However, the delivery of nicotine by nasal spray (Nicorette Nasal Spray) is pretty rapid and high (I know, I tried it too and of all NRTs gave a real good nic hit), is still prescription only for that very reason so it only gets prescribed by a health professional for someone already using tobacco products.

Looking at vaping rates of absorption are slower than combustible tobacco, but a bit higher and faster than say a patch which releases slowly and continually, unlike a vape where you take a draw whenever you feel like it. That combined with the availability of 0 mg nic or low mg nic for nicotine naive individuals greatly reduces the probability of nicotine addiction to develop.

How addictive is nicotine? That is an open question. Probably less than previously believed, and not supportive of vaping as a "gateway", but decades of research with solid biochemical and genetic testing demonstrating the actual changes that happen within a brain in response to nicotine cannot be ignored. I have no problem stating the likelihood of developing nicotine dependence from vaping is extremely small in a non-smoker, and certainly stating there are wide differences between individuals in their propensity to developing nicotine dependence even in tobacco (not everyone who has one or even several cigarette is automatically addicted to tobacco for life). But making a flat out statement that nicotine is not addictive makes vapers appear as untrustworthy as ANTZ or BT.
 

go_player

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How addictive is nicotine? That is an open question. Probably less than previously believed, and not supportive of vaping as a "gateway", but decades of research with solid biochemical and genetic testing demonstrating the actual changes that happen within a brain in response to nicotine cannot be ignored. I have no problem stating the likelihood of developing nicotine dependence from vaping is extremely small in a non-smoker, and certainly stating there are wide differences between individuals in their propensity to developing nicotine dependence even in tobacco (not everyone who has one or even several cigarette is automatically addicted to tobacco for life). But making a flat out statement that nicotine is not addictive makes vapers appear as untrustworthy as ANTZ or BT.

Yeah, I don't know enough about the subject to have a strong opinion on the subject (though I am inclined to suspect that vaping nicotine is at the very least _less_ addictive than smoking cigarettes. That seems to be true of other forms of smoking tobacco as well- cigars and pipes certainly seem to be addictive, but they don't seem to be so to the degree cigarettes are.)

But I think your point about NRTs is a good one. I've quit smoking cold-turkey a couple of times, once for six months, a couple of other times for more than a month. Some people find that not too difficult. I am not one of those people. I was just a basket case for the first month, and it took months before I felt right. I tried the patch not long before I started vaping, and tbh it didn't really seem to help, not even as much as you'd expect a placebo to (though for a variety of reasons I think I might be less susceptible to the placebo effect than some.)

OTOH, while I experienced some cravings when I started vaping (on much less effective equipment than is available today, though on pretty high nic juice) they were mild. I was actually very surprised- I had hoped that vaping would help, but had still expected to go through some hell, and most likely fail. So it seems pretty clear to me that vaping and the patch are quite different. That's anecdote (though it's anecdote that's common enough that it starts to look like data, if you squint at it in just the right light,) and I'm not suggesting that strong conclusions can be drawn from it. But I'm unconvinced by studies involving the patch or gum.

I think you make another good point when you point out that, since vaping doesn't seem to be very hazardous, dependence on _vaping itself_ should not be viewed in the same light as addiction to smoking, as long as it doesn't lead to smoking. I know some people who start vaping hoping to give it up in turn, and that's a fine goal. Frankly, I like nicotine- I think it something of a wonder drug. It's just a wonder drug that has traditionally had a very problematic delivery mechanism ;).

A business partner and I were talking a few years ago and he expressed a bit of jealousy at my vaping, because we were both working a lot, and he understood the way it picked me up and helped me concentrate, without the negative side-effects of- well I won't get into what a lot of people in my industry often do, as I think detailed discussion of that sort of thing is frowned on here. But even caffeine, while I definitely like some coffee in the morning, tends to make you pretty strung out if you overuse it. He was right, I think, to be jealous ;), though he didn't start vaping, entirely because of concerns over dependence.

It seems to me that the best way to limit the chances of vaping being a gateway to smoking is to make it easier to vape than to smoke. The people who are most pushing the idea of vaping as gateway seem generally to be the same people arguing for regulations that make it most likely to be one. This makes very little sense to me, but tbh there is quite a lot about politics and regulation that makes very little sense to me. I am either not very good at discerning the sense in much of it, or much of it makes very little sense.
 
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