Catalan Cream (FA) Question - Recipe Troubles

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by smarmy, Mar 23, 2014.

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  1. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    I'm two months in to vaping after 20 years of smoking, and this forum has been fantastic. Been lurking around and learning alot, and thought it would be time to start asking questions/posting. Just started DIY, and I have a question about a recipe I just made. I'm familliar with the flavors I used except Catalan Crean (FA), and French Vanilla (TFA). I mixed them at 2% each, and got an overpowering spicy note, so much it overpowers the dragon fruit and strawberry in the recipe. Kind of a peppery, clove, cinn spice. I think it's the Catalan Cream, anyone familiar with this flavor, or know where I picked up that spicy note? If it is the cream, it would be good in other recipies, just not what I was looking for in the Dragon/Strawberry mix.

    The recipe was:

    Dragon Fruit (TFA) 5%
    Sweet Strawberry (CP) 10%
    Hypnotic Mist (FA) 3%
    Catalan Cream (FA) 2%
    French Vanilla (TFA) 2%

    Think it will be a decent mix, maybe substitute bavarian, or sweet cream for the catalan?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. garpt01

    garpt01 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I've been DIY'ing for a couple months now, and one thing I've learned is the discipline needed to make a flavor, follow the recipe closely (if applicable), and then DON'T let the immediiate "taste test" effect your blend! The prominent notes will be extra strong and often almost overpower the blend, and the juiice may have a "harsh" or alchoholic note. STEEPING will cure that! I use warm water baths which accellerate the steeping. Otherwise, it is not unusual to have to wait a week, often longer for the blend to mature. Try not to "over tweak" while waiting. I ruined a few of my early attempts by over sweetening, compensating, etc. And the sweet cream might be a good idea, I've used the Bavarian and Catalan creams and they are quite powerful.
     
  3. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I'll give it some time steep and see if the harshness fades. I've read alot of people like the Catalan cream, I was just surprised at the spiciness. I've heard they are powerful, and can get hot at high %'s. Patiences is the hardest part when you're just starting and MIX CRAZY!
     
  4. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    What garpt01 said!

    And yep, it's likely the Catalan Cream. If it were us (and we ended up needing to change it after thorough steeping), we'd sub with Fresh Cream (FA)...you're loaded with sweetness already with the Sweet Strawberry & French Vanilla - so you don't really need a 'sugary cream'. Fresh Cream has got great 'body'...and (in our opinion) there's no reason to use an 'inhalation risk' (acetoin in the Bavarian or Sweet Cream), if it's not a "must have" for flavor/taste.

    'Sounds like a great mix! We've been going to try the Hypnotic Mist with some 'fruits n' flowers' for awhile now, and just haven't gotten around to it yet.
     
  5. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Sorry, forgot to ask, so is the Catalan Cream spicy, or have you found that it will that fade with the steeping.

    Thanks
     
  6. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Great thanks, posted my question as your reply came up. Thanks for the tip on the bavarian, and sweet cream. I ordered them from RTS, they are both TFA. They don't list acetoin, and say that it does not contain any "custard" note ingredients. Does this mean it won't have the acetoin in it, or should I avoid using them.

    Thanks again for all the help.
     
  7. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    You can go to the TFA website and see which flavors have that class of chemicals, here: Perfumers Apprentice - Professional Flavors

    Hmmm, RTS claims that? I'll go check it out, be right back.

    Okay, well this is none too pleasing...RTS claims:

    --Bavarian Cream doesn't have 'custard notes', but TFA states that it does *** Note: we have recently discovered that this flavor has a small trace amount of Acetoin
    --Sweet Cream doesn't have 'custard notes', but TFA states that it does This flavor contains a small trace amount of the Custard Note Acetoin.

    Wow, this is gettin' hairy. I see several that have them, where RTS claims 'not' or doesn't mention them :( But I don't have the time to check 'em all out.
    That's entirely up to you. But we would have NEVER started using them (ever!), if we'd known that 'trace amounts', calculate out to be far more than what is recommended for inhalation safety. With gazillions of options, why use the ones with known inhalation risks? But that's us.

    I just saw this (from here, post #1108 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-liquid-recipes/343181-tpa-tfa-recipes-only-28.html) regarding TFA flavors...
    There's also a list of TFA flavors containing 'custard notes' in the posts following that one.

    'Thing is, "trace amounts" carry strong potential risk according to CDC/NIOSH data. We calculated out the percentages and ppb (parts per billion) and compared it to the CDC/NIOSH recommendations/data here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document which basically states: 5-8 ppb for 8-hour-daily exposure, and 25ppb for short-term/15 minute exposure.

    Trace amount of .05%, in a flavor used at 5% in a mix = 250 ppb
    Trace amount of .6%, in a flavor used at 2% in a mix = 1200 ppb

    So "less than 1%" (even less than .1%) ends up yielding much more than what most of us would assume it would/could.
     
  8. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    We've found it really depends upon what it's mixed with...but it does seem (to us) to always fade at least a wee bit. 'Suprised to read that up against that much Sweet Strawberry and TFA Dragonfruit (TFA Dragonfruit is intense-in-a-bottle) that you were able to discern the 'spicy' of the Catalan Cream much at all. But sometimes certain flavors cause others to stand out (just like some flavors smother others).
     
  9. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Thank you for clearing that up about the creams, and pulling all that information together. The only reason I ordered them from RTS was because they listed them as not have the custard notes (Acetoin) which I wanted to avoid. From now on I'll go directly to the manufacture for this information. I just created a ticket with RTS to see if they can clear this up, and at least change how they are advertising these.

    Now, knowing I want to avoid acetoin, can you recomend a cream, sweet cream, or bavarian that you use which doesn't have the custard notes? I'm looking for the rich creaminess, or sweet cream addition to mixes.

    Again, thanks for all the help.
     
  10. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    None of these have those "custard notes" ingredients:

    Flavour Art Vienna Cream is rich, sweet, very creamy, vanilla. 2-3% on its own it's like that vanilla custard in the middle of Boston cream pie. I think this is the one you're looking for. I recommend it highly as a replacement for bavarian cream and vanilla custard flavors.

    Flavour Art Fresh Cream is plain cream, no vanilla, no sweetener. I use it to add cream flavor or round out just about any recipe without adding vanilla flavor. Very useful flavor.

    Flavour Art Catalan Cream does indeed have a little spice in it, but not much. I taste warm cinnamon with the creamy vanilla. Make sure you're shaking the flavor bottle before you're measuring it out.

    Flavour Art Custard also has no custard notes, despite the name. It is a base ingredient to use in recipes. You add the vanilla, caramel, fruit, spice (etc) to get a finished flavor. It's super with a little Rum.

    They also have 3 vanillas, each different, each useful. None are creamy; they are like an assortment of tasty vanilla extracts.

    And you are correct - you have to check manufacturers' websites. FA separates e-cig and "kitchen magic" flavors and warns against using the later for inhalation. TFA lists known ingredient information on their website. But most resellers DO include the ones with the ingredients you don't want, usually without mentioning it. Most other manufacturers don't disclose this info, if they even know.
     
  11. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    'Glad to hear you opened a ticket!

    To us, FA's Vienna Cream + a touch of FA's Fresh Cream fits the bill nicely. The Fresh cream is well-rounded and extremely "full", but is barely sweet. The Vienna Cream 'appromixmately matches' the sweetness of TFA's Sweet Cream. So, depending upon your full/cream : sweetness ratio, 1.25%-1.5% Vienna and .25% - .50% Fresh Cream (or thereabouts). You can't hurt yourselv with either of them.

    All of FA's e-cig line are diacetyl/similar free...but not all of their Kitchen Magic line is. Again, go to the Flavourart site to gather data, and then check it against what the vendors are selling (because many vendors sell from both FA lines).

    Some report that FA's Custard has a touch of lemon; others don't taste it (we've never tried that one). It's got great reviews and is free from the bad boys.

    Other than TFA and FA, we've found no other vendors that are willing to back up their claims with proof of their claims. There are few that will "tell us" which flavors do/do not have them (and even at what percentages). But if you learn how to recognize the diacetyl/similar flavors (by mixing them with actual whipped cream and taste-testing them - see Flavorists Corner at TFA), you'll quickly become a skeptic regarding typical "vendor claims". (These flavors are VERY obvious once you know what they taste/smell like).

    Other 'non-afflicted' flavors that add creaminess & sweetness (in various ways), that you can use in small percentages:

    Cheesecake TFA
    Marshmallow TFA (FA's Marshmallow is more like a european marshmallow/meringue; it's not gooey sweet/thick like American marshmallows)
    Whipped Cream TFA (not FA)
    Caramel Flavor TFA (not Caramel Candy or Caramel Original)
    Irish Cream (FA)
    Vanilla Swirl (TFA) spot-on "dairy queen soft serve"
    French Vanilla (TFA) you already know/have
    etc.,etc., you get the idea.

    You're more than welcome! Happy mixing :)
     
  12. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Perfect! I'm going for the FA Vienna Cream,.... and the FA Custard,... and yes I now have to get RUM! The wife and I enjoyed a lot of Rum Cream when in Jamaica, got to try and make it, brings back the memories!

    Thanks for all the fantastic help!
     
  13. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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  14. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    The Custard is a sharper flavor than Vienna Cream. If you think 'lemon', you'll taste it, power of suggestion I think.

    smarmy, if you get the Jamaican Rum, you might also want Cola. FA does it perfectly. Oh, and if you like cherry Coke, get Black Cherry, too. I'll stop now. :)
     
  15. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Canandaigua, NY
    Pertect! Next project, Jamaican Rum Cream, and Rum and Coke. I have a never ending flavor shopping list. This has turned into way more of a hobby/obsession than just about quitting smoking! Starting to get a hang of this forum, went back looking around, and looks like 3-5% FA Jamaican Rum would be a place to start, with the Vienna Cream at 3%?
     
  16. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I'd recommend just trying 2% or less first. It's easy to add more flavoring if you like, but you can use a lot of nic base trying to dilute one mixed too strong. Jamaican Rum at 5% would knock me flat, but then I don't drink plain rum either.
     
  17. smarmy

    smarmy Full Member

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    Got it, thanks for the advice. Will Start with 3% FA Jamaican Rum, and 1% FA Vienna Cream, and go from there. Also, I saw your posts on some recipies with Black Honey tabac, and rum. Next on my list when my order comes in:)

    Thanks to all, and have a great day
     
  18. Spazzer

    Spazzer Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Upstate NY
    FYI according to the component lists on the TFA page here, Cheesecake and Marshmallow do have the "custard note(s)", even though their flavor descriptions don't mention them.
     
  19. salemgold

    salemgold ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    FYI- FA Custard definitely is a lime custard. Years ago when they changed the custard from vanilla, they started using lime. It is there. No imagination needed :)

    If you are looking for a Vanilla Custard, you will not find it with the FA Custard.
     
  20. we2rcool

    we2rcool Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    From the FA site: >>>NEW February 2010. Delicate, vanilla and lemon blends perfectly.<<<

    'Must need that imagination to get the lime :)
     
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