Clive Bates on Tobacco Control - 9 July 2014 - "The Conversation"

[Anjaffm]

Excellent long comment by Clive Bates (6 hours ago) on "Public health" blathering that puts "unity in tobacco control" before the health of human beings

https://theconversation.com/is-big-tobacco-abandoning-smokes-for-e-cigarettes-28328

- Precise summary of our concerns. And great ending:

I suggest tobacco control advocates try three things: (1) take a sceptical but open-minded view of the possible role that tobacco companies will have, given the competitive dynamic between them - my view is that they will be prime movers in transforming their own industry and the 'endgame': (2) be a careful what they wish for and recognise that 'strict regulation' is a gift to the big players, slows innovation, denies smokers options and protects cigarettes; (3) get back to basics: it the cancer, cardiovascular disease and lung disease that matters - any war with an industry is subordinate to this. May I recommend reading some testimonies from vapers - and approaching the subject with a little more empathy and humility? Try these, unsolicited testimonies left on my website: Where is the humility? Where is the empathy? « The counterfactual

(emphasis mine)

 

[AgentAnia]

Thanks for posting, Anja. Excellent comments all around, yours in particular.

 

[Dayglow]

Indeed, thank you for the read.

 

[Tache]

I concur with the previous comments. On a minor point, I have to say that it brought a little smile to my lips when I read, "The companies are focussed on the combined profit pool of tobacco and e-cigarettes, but they are strongly competitive with each other and will lose market share to other tobacco companies or non-tobacco e-cigarette / vapour business if they don't product products that smokers want, and better products than their rivals (BAT will not mind 'losing' a smoker to one of its e-cigarettes, but it won't want to lose her to NJOY or PMI)."

Kudos to Clive for his inclusiveness.

 

[DrMA]

Every time I read the word "endgame" it makes my skin crawl because it just sounds too much like "Endlösung"

OTT, great commentary by Clive. Thanks for posting.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Clive and I have had many dozens (perhaps hundreds) of discussions with Becky Freeman (and her mentor Simon Chapman) about tobacco harm reduction products and policies during the past 15 years (when Clive was director of ASH UK), but Freeman is professional obfuscater who only knows how to demonize tobacco companies.

I posted the following comment on Freeman's rant. It appears on my screen, but don't know if they've posted it for others to see.



As one who has actively urged tobacco companies to develop and market far less hazardous smokeless tobacco and e-cigarettes to cigarette smokers for most of the past decade (and who has sent Becky Freeman weekly news updates about our successful public health campaign to convince smokers to switch to smokefree alternatives), I'm disappointed she has once again (for the nth time) chosen to obfuscate by creating straw man arguments against tobacco companies.

A far more important public health issue is Australia's unethical and inhumane laws (advocated by Becky Freeman and her mentor Simon Chapman) that deny addicted cigarette smokers legal and affordable access to exponentially less hazardous snus and e-cigarettes.

Those Australian laws are public health malpractice, and they dwarf the number of suffering syphilis victims the US Public Health Service denied treatment (to watch them die) in its infamous Tuskegee Study decades ago.

Denying suffering smokers smokefree alternatives is also cruel and unusual punishment that demonstrates disdain for the lives and health of smokers (and the nonsmokers who have to breath the tobacco smoke pollution created by their cigarette smoking).

All real public health advocates (and other ethical and humane individuals) support cigarette smokers switching to less hazardous smokefree alternatives, and support their right to legally access these alternatives.

Unfortunately, intolerant extremists have taken over the old anti smoking public health movement (especially in Australia), and they've outrageously banned the least hazardous tobacco/nicotine products while keeping the deadliest products (i.e. cigarettes) on the market. Even ...... can understand that those policies protect cigarette markets at the expense of public health.

Protecting and preserving cigarette markets (by banning snus and e-cigs) while demonizing cigarette companies is deadly hypocrisy.

Bill Godshall
Executive Director
Smokefree Pennsylvania
1926 Monongahela Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15218
412-351-5880
BillGodshall@verizon.net

 

[Anjaffm]

@Bill Godshall:
Excellent comment And they DID publish it.

.........

Every time I read the word "endgame" it makes my skin crawl because it just sounds too much like "Endlösung"

I agree. Also for me, a German person, "end game" sounds exactly like "Endlösung" - and all in all, it has the same objective Final Solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After all, the "war on tobacco" is not fought on tobacco. Cigarettes are freely available. Instead, the "war" is fought on human beings. With the (professed) intention of having them die out. And the contempt of human beings is very evident indeed Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

Yes. To a German person that rhetoric sounds very familiar indeed. Also see here: http://www.tobakkonacht.com/preface.html

Edit:
Oh, that woman was "mentored" by Simon Chapman? That explains her open contempt.
After all, Simon Chapman is the author of the infamous phrase "taking any kind of stick, a cigarette stick or a vape stick, is a pathetic, juvenile act" (Clive Bates Blog, comments)

 

[Tangaroav]

Very tough provoking thread.

I the past, due mostly to naivety, I was not against some form of regulation for the vaporising of e-juices industry and commerce to assure the integrity of the products offered.

With a little information, I now realise that there is no such a thing as 'little' regulations. Too much vested interests and too much greed and dishonesty from the majority of politicians makes this impossible.

 

[Anjaffm]

Very tough provoking thread.

I the past, due mostly to naivety, I was not against some form of regulation for the vaporising of e-juices.

With a little information, I now realise that there is no such a thing as 'little' regulations. Too much vested interests and too much greed and dishonesty from the majority of politicians.

Thank you!
It is this kind of comment, like yours, that makes it all worthwhile.
Do check the "Media and General News" once in a while, this section can be a great source of information. (Including postings by those vaping activists who do not / who no longer post in many general threads, for reasons of their own).
Yes, there is no such thing as "little" regulation. As mere "regulation" (as in protecting consumers, who are already protected by existing product laws and regulations) is the last thing on the mind of such people. What they are really attempting to protect is the cigarette market. Because the cigarette market, the smoking gravy train, feeds them. "Public health" is the last thing on the minds of those "public health" activists who scream the loudest against our healthier choice.
I am happy that this thread has opened your eyes. That makes it all worthwhile.

 

[Anjaffm]

And excellent piece by Carl Phillips about the same silly blathering from down under:

Economic illiteracy about tobacco, from the antepode | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

Just a small excerpt:

In the TCI, you just extract tax money from consumers, and so every penny is pure profit, leading to an inability to understand the difference between revenue and profit. The failure to understand the basic functioning of industry — despite TCI’s obsession with industry — is further illustrated by not realizing that major companies with hugely successful product lines still try to do new things on a different scale. Having large units and blockbuster products does not mean you cannot also do well with some small units. You would think that the pharma industry could explain that to them.

(TCI = Tobacco Control Industry)

well worth reading

 

[Anjaffm]

This is starting to get interesting - now Carl Phillips posted the link to his blog in the comments

Read the comments while they have not deleted them yet - I just threw Simon ("pathetic, juvenile") Chapman's own "scream test" in their faces - Because now, THEY are screaming. Screaming at the top of their lungs. Meaning that WE, the vapers, are doing the right thing

The comments are really worth reading -and adding to. Do it while you can. I very much doubt that they will leave those comments standing. Including Carl Phillips' link to his blogpost with the typo ( caution: adult language typo )

 

[Mossy]

Thanks for this Anjaffm. Seeing that it was in my backyard(so to speak) and more importantly it was in my old mate "Chappo's" front yard, I just had to join the site and comment.

 

[DrMA]

New comment by Carl Phillips. It says the article constitutes "definitive proof that people in Tobacco Control don't read." That is not only because the article displays naive ignorance of reality, but also because Clive pointed out an embarrassing typo more than 5 days ago, and it hasn't been corrected as of just now.

You wouldn't expect the ANTZ to be bothered by facts, now...

 

[Anjaffm]

Thank you for the heads up, dear.
The new commenter is Carl Phillips, by the way. He is good!

And I most definitely agree with that wonderfully eloquent vaping lady:

Carl, I call this "hit and run propaganda", it is common to see this type of article in the media. The "experts" seem to think they are above any sort of discussion or debate with those whose lives they seek to control and influence.
...
This, to me, smacks of arrogance, and a willful and deliberate ignorance in favour of a strict and irrational adherence to an ideology that does nothing to advance public health.

I have no idea who she is. But I would most definitely like to shake her hand.

 

[AndriaD]

This is starting to get interesting - now Carl Phillips posted the link to his blog in the comments

Read the comments while they have not deleted them yet - I just threw Simon ("pathetic, juvenile") Chapman's own "scream test" in their faces - Because now, THEY are screaming. Screaming at the top of their lungs. Meaning that WE, the vapers, are doing the right thing

The comments are really worth reading -and adding to. Do it while you can. I very much doubt that they will leave those comments standing. Including Carl Phillips' link to his blogpost with the typo ( caution: adult language typo )

They're screaming because we have found a way to do the thing we like, or at least a close approximation of its sensations and positive effects, without killing ourselves and/or creating a hazard for bystanders -- they see it as an "end run" around their fascist "thou shalt NOT!" mentality, which is EXACTLY what it is! Fascist control-freaks hate it when you find a way to thwart them.

So a big ol pltpltpltttpppttt! to those who want to control everything and everybody -- except themselves and their control-freak tendencies!

Andria

 

[Mossy]

I just put up a comment asking if they can find somebody to answer the critiques...............after all the site is called "The Conversation" I don't expect an answer.

 

[Anjaffm]

I just put up a comment asking if they can find somebody to answer the critiques...............after all the site is called "The Conversation" I don't expect an answer.

Bwaaahaaahaa!!!
You are absolutely correct, dear. I must admit that the irony of posting nonsense on a site called "The Conversation" and never coming back to check for comments (or typos, hehehe), let alone engage in any kind of "conversation", had completely escaped me.
Thank you for pointing it out!

 

[Sirius]

Thank you Anja for the thread. Out of 4 pages I looked into on ECF this morning this thread was buried pretty deep. Plenty of mod and juice threads though. That could well explain my worries now after all of my efforts seem to be dashed at the state level of my work. Seems old Johnny boy is all for the FDA regulating e-cigs.
This hit my inbox yesterday:

senator@isakson.senate.gov (senator@isakson.senate.gov) 7/15/14
To: ricktaylor......................com

Dear Mr. Taylor:



Thank you for contacting my office regarding the regulation of electronic nicotine delivery systems. I appreciate hearing from you and I am grateful for the opportunity to respond.



H.R. 5010, the Stop Selling and Marketing to Our Kids E–Cigarettes (SMOKE) Act, was introduced on June 26, 2014 and referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce. This bill aims to clarify the Food and Drug Administration (FDA)'s authority to regulate electronic nicotine delivery systems including electronic cigarettes, cigars, cigarillos, pipes, and hookahs. These regulations would include the sale, labeling, packaging, marketing, and advertising of electronic nicotine delivery systems.



As a member of the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee the health and well-being of Americans are of the utmost importance to me. Please be assured I will keep your thoughts in mind as Congress debates regulation of electronic cigarettes.

Thank you again for contacting me. Please visit my webpage at http://www.isakson.senate.gov/ for more information on the issues important to you and to sign up for my e-newsletter.


Sincerely,
Johnny Isakson
United States Senator

 

[Anjaffm]

Jeezus H. Chr....
About his personal stance / intentions on the issue, that guy said precisely - nothing.
Bleah.

 

[Sirius]

Bravo James Jenkins..whoever you are:

James Jenkin
EFL Teacher Trainer
The article doesn't once consider unintended consequences of ecigarette regulation or prohibition.

Studies (e.g. Real-world effectiveness of e-cigarettes when used to aid smoking cessation: a cross-sectional population study - Brown - Addiction - Wiley Online Library) suggest ecigarette users are far more likely to give up smoking than people using anti-smoking products or going cold turkey. So we're fighting something that can get people off fags.

Also, corporations love regulation. They can afford it. At the moment the ecigarette market is thriving, with lots of minor players. Regulation helps squeeze out this competition - manna from heaven for Marlboro and the like who want to maintain their market dominance.