Cloning Milk and Honey

[matrix961]

Of all the custards I've tried (CAP Vanilla custard, FA Custard) TFA Vanilla custard is my favorite. That doesn't mean that its in M&H though.

Does anyone sense a vanilla flavor in M&H? Old recipe attempts around the web called for Vanilla custard and/or vanilla swirl.

Matrix, I had the same issue before when cloning. vape tongue even got my real M&H not to taste like M&H anymore.

I decided to try and cure my vape tongue by going back to testing my UM clone. Holy cow strawberry milk all around lol. This is with my fixed 10% strawberry recipe lol. Amazing how focusing on M&H for the past week or so brings out the taste in other juices. Can finally wrap up my UM recipe, thankfully lol. Ill just vape that for a day or so straight then come back to testing the M&H clone.

Man this is how i screwed up my monster melons clone as well. Got so used to it i cranked up the papaya then someone came along and was like woah dude lol. Finally have that one fixed now too.

About the vanilla, i too sensed a very light amount. This is why i put that in the banana cream recipe to see how it did.

 

[C4M3120N]

I personally don't taste any vanilla in M&H myself but that could be either because it's not used in M&H or it's used at such small amounts like matrix961 is trying out to round out or enhance other flavors. But because of the style of M&H (creamy/dessert'ish) I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few unnoticeable flavors do end up being in our clone.

Flavors I do notice without question are some type of graham cracker, some type of marshmallow and or cotton candy, some type of peanut butter and some type of banana.

Also, just as a suggestion matrix961, if I got this right, your testing out your batches in your Atlantis? It seems like it would be a better (at least cheaper) idea to fill your Atlantis with true M&H and test out your test batches in your RDA, as building a new coil or at the very least just replacing the wicking would be a lot cheaper than using new Atlantis coils? It's just a though...

Also, I don't use any RDA's, but since getting heavy into blending or trying to copy juices, I'm starting to think it might be a good investment. So, my question is, with all of them out there, do any of you have a good suggestion?

Also thank you all for the TFA Vanilla Custard advice, I'm going to go ahead and mix up your Banana Matrix Cream and your M&H clone recipe

 

[matrix961]

I personally don't taste any vanilla in M&H myself but that could be either because it's not used in M&H or it's used at such small amounts like matrix961 is trying out to round out or enhance other flavors. But because of the style of M&H (creamy/dessert'ish) I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few unnoticeable flavors do end up being in our clone.

Flavors I do notice without question are some type of graham cracker, some type of marshmallow and or cotton candy, some type of peanut butter and some type of banana.

Also, just as a suggestion matrix961, if I got this right, your testing out your batches in your Atlantis? It seems like it would be a better (at least cheaper) idea to fill your Atlantis with true M&H and test out your test batches in your RDA, as building a new coil or at the very least just replacing the wicking would be a lot cheaper than using new Atlantis coils? It's just a though...

Also, I don't use any RDA's, but since getting heavy into blending or trying to copy juices, I'm starting to think it might be a good investment. So, my question is, with all of them out there, do any of you have a good suggestion?

Also thank you all for the TFA Vanilla Custard advice, I'm going to go ahead and mix up your Banana Matrix Cream and your M&H clone recipe

I mostly use my RDA when doing most of my testing while building a recipe. When I get it to what I think is good I load up Atlantis #1 with the original which I usually already have and Atlantis #2 with the recipe. I do this since flavor intensity changes for me especially between the RDA and the Atlantis. The Atlantis is my carry around mod while my RDA is my at home "lets fog the place up" mod LOL. I have to make sure it tastes good in both but if I screw up and something isn't right and have to do a final test again then I do replace the coils to be 100% sure about the taste.

I'm using a Troll RDA with dual 26 gauge coils at .2 ohm running 50 watts on my sigelei 100w plus and love it. It's very easy to work with and inexpensive as well.

Thank you for all your advice and everyone else's as well, it's really helped me along.

 

[C4M3120N]

I think I'm going to go for the Derringer RDA, it seems to have a lot of positive reviews and it looks pretty sharp, imo. I do like the build of the Troll RDA but that little face is really creepy to me, lol.

I like how you have Atlantis #1 and Atlantis #2 You should go get them engraved with a #1 and #2 on them I've also been contemplating picking up one of those or another Kanger Subtank Mini myself. I really love my Kanger Subtank Mini. Though I did find the Atlantis to be equally impressive. A local vape shop sells them and the guy let me try his because he wanted to show me how well it hit after he removed the inside piece of the air flow control valve, it hit really awesome! Visually I simply prefer the Kanger Subtank Mini. It's definitely exciting to see all these new replaceable coil sub tanks coming out though!

I know this a M&H clone thread but I would also be very interested in your Unicorn Milk clone as well as ckquatt's Beez Kneez clone

I really admire your level of dedication in developing your recipes matrix961, I actually haven't tried a lot of the popular juices out there, in fact M&H is one of the few E-Liquids I have bought in a long time, I just kept hearing so much praise about it, lol. I haven't developed any great or even good recipes on my own but I definitely prefer making my own over buying them, simply for the savings. I think to myself, it doesn't really matter if my juices don't taste great, I used to smoke and that tasted worse, even though I really liked that taste when I smoked and didn't realize how nasty it really was until I started vaping, lol. However it would be nice to have a couple of really nice e-liquids to make up. So maybe if you wouldn't mind, you could share a couple of your favorite ones with me?

I'm sitting here mixing up Banana Matrix Cream right now, did you speed steep it? I'm imagining a week or more of natural steeping would probably do wonders for this. For the record, that is it's official name now, lol.

EDIT - Banana Matrix Cream smells better than original Banana Cream!

 

[matrix961]

I know this a M&H clone thread but I would also be very interested in your Unicorn Milk clone as well as ckquatt's Beez Kneez clone

I'm sitting here mixing up Banana Matrix Cream right now, did you speed steep it? I'm imagining a week or more of natural steeping would probably do wonders for this. For the record, that is it's official name now, lol.

EDIT - Banana Matrix Cream smells better than original Banana Cream!

Glad you tried the banana cream mix. I think steeping should help with the overall flavor. I did let it sit for a few days probably only because I didn't have the rest of the ingredients to mix up M&H yet LOL. But I do think it did well smoothing out a bit over a few days. What I like about my banana cream mix is that it seems smoother to me than the TFA version.

Yes I can send a few of my recipes to you via PM. I'll write something up and send them over your way.

 

[DrLucky]

I'll PM you a recipe too as to not get this thread off track.
It's one of my best!

 

[matrix961]

Vaping my UM clone the other night definitely cured my vape tongue for now.

Back to business! So i had to remove the fw marshmallow due to a funky taste on exhale. No longer get an after taste now. As a test i also dropped the cheesecake graham crust. So now i have only the diy banana cream, peanut butter, and cotton candy. Surprisingly its even better for me now without the off taste the fw marshmallow was giving. The cheesecake graham crust didnt make it bad its just i never really tasted any graham in the original or just not enough. Maybe i thought i did but maybe it was the peanut butter all along.

For me this passes the smell test, taste test, and vape test for me. I think its amazing for myself and already vaped 1 1/2 15 ml bottles since yesterday afternoon, on an RDA thats not hard lol. I also made a light, medium, and strong version to steep and test after a week.

So basically the light version is my last posted recipe without the graham and marshmallow then i just increased amounts a bit for a meduim and stronger version to test with.

 

[Gersey]

loved reading this thread now I am going to have to place a order and start mixing

 

[DoubleEwe]

I too have enjoyed reading this thread and seeing the progress of the master mixers.

I have never tried Milk and Honey, but this thread has certainly sparked my interest in it!
Any updates on recent recipes/alterations?

I thought I would condense Matrix's most recent recipe into singular form:

Milk & Honey Matrix
FW Banana 0.477%
CAP Vanilla Custard 0.371%
TFA Bavarian Cream 0.371%
TFA French Vanilla 0.265%
TFA Peanut Butter 3.3%
TFA Cotton Candy 2.0%

Total Flavouring 6.784%

 

[matrix961]

I too have enjoyed reading this thread and seeing the progress of the master mixers.

I have never tried Milk and Honey, but this thread has certainly sparked my interest in it!
Any updates on recent recipes/alterations?

I thought I would condense Matrix's most recent recipe into singular form:

Milk & Honey Matrix
FW Banana 0.477%
CAP Vanilla Custard 0.371%
TFA Bavarian Cream 0.371%
TFA French Vanilla 0.265%
TFA Peanut Butter 3.3%
TFA Cotton Candy 2.0%

Total Flavouring 6.784%

The only change I'm planning on making after testing is adding back the marshmallow but the TFA version this time. Should arrive tomorrow. I can't do the FW version of it, for some reason, and it might just be me but it's got a nasty exhale for me. The TFA version was the only one I ever used and ran out of it making other juices. Not sure what percentage I'll add that back in at tho. I'll likely start with the same as I had then go up if needed after testing.

As it stands now I just started vaping the "higher octane" version (increased flavor percentages) I let sit for a few days. I'm really enjoying it but do think it will benefit from the TFA marshmallow being added. I'll post an update tomorrow if it comes in.

 

[ckquatt]

The only change I'm planning on making after testing is adding back the marshmallow but the TFA version this time. Should arrive tomorrow. I can't do the FW version of it, for some reason, and it might just be me but it's got a nasty exhale for me. The TFA version was the only one I ever used and ran out of it making other juices. Not sure what percentage I'll add that back in at tho. I'll likely start with the same as I had then go up if needed after testing.

As it stands now I just started vaping the "higher octane" version (increased flavor percentages) I let sit for a few days. I'm really enjoying it but do think it will benefit from the TFA marshmallow being added. I'll post an update tomorrow if it comes in.

Please do! I'm interested in your results!

 

[DrLucky]

New all FW batch steeping now:

v2 4/8/15
Peanut Butter (FW) 3%
Banana Split (FW) 3%
Marshmallow (FW) 2%
Graham Cracker (FW) 3%
Cotton Candy (FW) 1%

The peanut butter by FW smells pretty weird, and I'm worried that was a big factor in the first brew that turned out so horribly.
Also, FW Marshmallow smells like root beer to me.. anyone else?

 

[C4M3120N]

I think I may have a problem



The box with the blue trim is my dedicated box for CF M&H suspected flavorings, lol.

 

[C4M3120N]

Hey M&H Clone Team,

I apologize for the lack of input from me lately. I've been busy going through (vaping) my previous 16 test batches and so far I haven't had any real success or any good news to share from them yet, I've still got a little more than half to go through. Some of them aren't even any good but I don't want to waste them and I want to see if any of the notes or %'ages feel/taste close.

One thing I would like to mention is that a lot of my test batches that have FW in them all have that undesirable perfumy taste to them. Which is a huge disappointment to say the least. Perhaps it is coming from one particular flavor at to high of a % but I haven't actually determined that or narrowed down any suspects yet and I'm hoping it's not a trait of all FW flavorings.

For DrLucky, I compared both my FW Peanut Butter and FW Marshmallow to the TFA versions and they smell fairly similar to each other, the FW versions actually smelled a little stronger to me. Where did you order your FW flavorings from?

It's looks like we also have a few new players? Welcome to the M&H clone quest, any and all help is definitely welcomed and appreciated!
If you have any questions or need any secret tips, find the nearest parking garage, look for a mysterious person standing in a darkened corner wearing a hat and a trench coat and carrying a briefcase. Some say this mysterious stranger answers to ckquatt but that has been neither officially or unofficially confirmed or denied.

It almost sounds like your getting pretty close matrix961!!! That is fantastic news!!!

Milk & Honey:
DIY Banana Matrix Cream - 5.3%
TFA Peanut Butter - 3.3%
TFA Cotton Candy - 2.0%
TFA Marshmallow - 1.3%

I'm going to try mixing up ^this^ tomorrow unless you send me something different before then. My Banana Matrix Cream is smelling awesome after steeping, I haven't tried it yet but it smells so much better than all my other Banana Creams!

Also Thank You very much to matrix961 and DrLucky for PM'ing some of your favorite recipes. I have to order some new flavorings to complete them though. Which I probably will in a couple weeks or so. Thank You both again!

EDIT: I just mixed it up tonight before heading off to bed. I have to say matrix961 it smells pretty good! Have you been speed steeping these?

 

[ckquatt]

Hello Gersey and Double Ewe! I'll be on the 4th floor of the parking garage waiting. If I have any bits of insight I'll be sure to let you know! Just wait for my signal!

 

[matrix961]

New all FW batch steeping now:



The peanut butter by FW smells pretty weird, and I'm worried that was a big factor in the first brew that turned out so horribly.
Also, FW Marshmallow smells like root beer to me.. anyone else?

I was trying to figure out what it was with the FW marshmallow. Your right it does have a kind of candy like root beerish smell to it. I even tried to air a small amount of it in a glass bottle overnight and still it just isn't what the TFA version is.

I did a real good test on this. I mixed up my monster melons recipe with the FW version instead of the TFA version and it is nowhere close unfortunately when comparing to a bottle I had mixed up with the TFA version. I was planning on using the FW version since I have a 4oz bottle of it but not going to do that now. Glad I have more of the TFA version coming, this was a good learning experience tho in how different the same flavor can be with different manufacturers.

I was also put on a definite FW carmel-candy ban in the house as of last night. It seemed to smell good at first but when I vaped it my wife was in the computer room in no time asking if the cat pee'd somewhere. It was the carmel-candy I mixed up LOL. Then after smelling it for awhile I got where she was coming from. She has a good nose as well. She is my go to for sniffing out if I'm on track with a recipe. It just has an off smell when vaping it.

The captain crunch smells good that I got with the FW honey. BTW, the FW honey is so far apart from the TFA version I don't know what to think. It in no way smells like honey. At least the TFA version smells like a raw dark clover honey, just potent as hell. Oh well, win some lose some LOL. They are not a total loss tho, perhaps in small amounts in a future recipe they will do good. Some of the FW stuff is good, I like the banana and the strawberry is decent. The FW milk is also comparable to the TFA version from what I can tell so far, so it's not all bad for me.

Also all of my FW has been ordered directly from FW themselves. Most of what I have has a manufacture date of 2 months at most.

C4M3120N,

In response to your speed steeping question...I don't speed steep but I do some natural steeping. The thing that I like is using heat when mixing. I really like this as it temporarily thins out the VG to make the shaking & mixing process much easier. I'll just take the bottles and soak them for a few minutes in hot water then start shaking like crazy.

One thing for me with steeping is I try not to vape anything like it while it's sitting to give my senses a rest. Then I can come back to it after a few days with my senses all reset and ready to go. The longest I've steeped before digging in and vaping is maybe 3 days LOL. I do have a bottle of monster melons left that I haven't touched for weeks since I've been working on Milk & Honey. I do notice it has mellowed out nice but once I get my recipes finalized I do plan on mixing up larger batches to let steep for a week before vaping them.

It always seems I'm waiting on an ingredient tho since most of my flavors are small 15ml bottles of TFA or Capella. I did sign up for the TFA batch ordering on their site so I'm going to start ordering 4oz bottles. They are also in the same price range as FW 4oz bottles so not sure why I didn't do this sooner.

 

[C4M3120N]

Hey matrix961, I was just browsing the Sweet-Vapes website "Coming Soon" section and noticed there was a new tank coming out that can handle 100watts called the "Matrix"

So, I'm still going through all of my test batches and one thing that is missing from every single one of them is the sweetness of real CF M&H. Do any of you think that sweetener could be one of the missing ingredients?

I tried your latest test batch today matrix961 and maybe I did something wrong, which is quite possible because I mixed it up late last night before I went to bed. I did end up speed steeping it but maybe I over did it? I will try making it again tomorrow and see if I have better results with it. I definitely think it had to much peanut butter but that could have been a mistake by me from improper half asleep measuring, lol.

I haven't vaped any real M&H for several days because I've been trying to be diligent and go through all my test batches but I did fill up my tank with it this evening, it's so good and so far I have been far off from making an even remotely acceptable clone, like not even close. As sweet as it is, I'm really starting to think there is some sort of sweetener added, a sweetness that flavorings alone cannot produce. So I think when I start making a new set of test batches, I'm going to start playing around with adding some sweetener. It's funny how when I first started vaping it, I could definitely taste some Graham Cracker, now I don't even taste it all but perhaps that is do to testing all these test batches that almost all had Graham Cracker in it.

As of right now, I do agree that certain FW flavorings are simply no good to vape at any %'age but I guess that can be said for any flavor brand.

I might try using your latest recipe matrix961 and try replacing the Cotton Candy with EM, my ckquatt PG blend, lol.
@ matrix961, do you find your latest batch has that similar sweet taste to CF M&H?

My Derringer RDA should be showing up tomorrow, so I'm hoping that will help me perform better taste tests. I'm thinking of making up some single flavor batches of suspected M&H ingredients to see if I can get a better feel for what might be in it and the RDA will definitely be useful for that purpose.

Anyway, I hope you are all doing well.

 

[DoubleEwe]

Hello Gersey and Double Ewe! I'll be on the 4th floor of the parking garage waiting. If I have any bits of insight I'll be sure to let you know! Just wait for my signal!

Thanks Ckquatt! But I would rather wait somewhere else, car parks (parking lots) here in the UK are a hotbed of 'nocturnal activity', so I fear your signal might bring about undesired consequences. (google dogging)

I am itching to jump in on this M&H action, it is a bit like watching Columbo unraveling the mysteries of one of his cases (hopefully nobody's eyes have been affected by the struggle though).

 

[matrix961]

Hey matrix961, I was just browsing the Sweet-Vapes website "Coming Soon" section and noticed there was a new tank coming out that can handle 100watts called the "Matrix"

So, I'm still going through all of my test batches and one thing that is missing from every single one of them is the sweetness of real CF M&H. Do any of you think that sweetener could be one of the missing ingredients?

I tried your latest test batch today matrix961 and maybe I did something wrong, which is quite possible because I mixed it up late last night before I went to bed. I did end up speed steeping it but maybe I over did it? I will try making it again tomorrow and see if I have better results with it. I definitely think it had to much peanut butter but that could have been a mistake by me from improper half asleep measuring, lol.

I haven't vaped any real M&H for several days because I've been trying to be diligent and go through all my test batches but I did fill up my tank with it this evening, it's so good and so far I have been far off from making an even remotely acceptable clone, like not even close. As sweet as it is, I'm really starting to think there is some sort of sweetener added, a sweetness that flavorings alone cannot produce. So I think when I start making a new set of test batches, I'm going to start playing around with adding some sweetener. It's funny how when I first started vaping it, I could definitely taste some Graham Cracker, now I don't even taste it all but perhaps that is do to testing all these test batches that almost all had Graham Cracker in it.

As of right now, I do agree that certain FW flavorings are simply no good to vape at any %'age but I guess that can be said for any flavor brand.

I might try using your latest recipe matrix961 and try replacing the Cotton Candy with EM, my ckquatt PG blend, lol.
@ matrix961, do you find your latest batch has that similar sweet taste to CF M&H?

My Derringer RDA should be showing up tomorrow, so I'm hoping that will help me perform better taste tests. I'm thinking of making up some single flavor batches of suspected M&H ingredients to see if I can get a better feel for what might be in it and the RDA will definitely be useful for that purpose.

Anyway, I hope you are all doing well.

Just out of curiosity what are you using for measuring? I'm using syringes that measure by .1 ml increments. Although I'm thinking that would be the last issue on our hands. One thing I've noticed in making sample recipes is that sometimes I see recipes similar to what I'm making and I think "what the heck are they thinking". But here's the problem. I taste differently than you or anyone else does and vice versa. We are all making recipes based on our own perception of the flavor profile and I see that as a potential issue.

I've been looking around and see some products that I've never noticed before for ejuice. Flavor enhancers, do they work and are ejuice companies using them?

I do have background in culinary arts having my associates degree, even tho I didn't end up working as a chef. I actually went from cooking to the army to computer technologies LOL. Anyways I remember all of my culinary teachings and one thing we obviously learned about is flavor enchancing in food. Just kind of wondering if there is something like an "MSG" for ejuice?

I too have been thinking how the original M&H and others juices can taste consistent over a large population. I know some don't like it just as I don't like certain juices but out of many that do we all seem to think we smell this peanut butter note which I certainly do. But some say they actually taste honey which I don't understand. I need to crack open another original bottle and test again. My worry is that when I start doing that I've gone into sensory overload and eventually within hours of heavy vaping both original and DIY start tasting like flavorless base when comparing them.

So my question is has anyone used any of the so called flavor enhancers for eliquid on the market and are they what the manufacturers say they are? I've seen a few that even advertise that it even fixes bad juices, that's why I thought about MSG since this is (or was) a popular flavor enhancer used in the cooking industry. BTW I have a salad dressing that without MSG tastes like crap LOL, not joking either. I call it my crack dressing The company makes it with and without MSG and there is such a huge difference.

So could there be anything like this that manufacturers are using in their juices so they can use less flavoring but enhance it so that you get more with less in the flavoring? Because I do agree that increasing some of these flavorings past a certain level makes the profile undesirable. Right now I can hardly taste anything with the last recipe I did unless I take at least a 24 hour break from it. I'm still missing the TFA marshmallow and that does come today although I don't see it as a magic fix to get more potency back in the flavor profile but that may just be me.

I did vape the rest of the last recipe I did, the one you just mixed up and I'm still personally getting the M&H profile with plenty of sweetness. But that's just my tastes. You are most certainly going to taste differently just like everyone else. Hell I'm wondering how someone that says they can taste honey in the original would think this recipe is?

I think I might start looking into these enhancers and see what is behind them. That's the only thing I can see that would make the juice at lower percentages more flavorful without destroying the juice by increasing the actual flavors too much.

BTW thank you and all the others for your input. It's really helpful to have others testing the same recipe and flavors etc. I really value that.

 

[DoubleEwe]

There is the possibility that the people who say that they can taste honey in the liquid are saying that due to the placebo effect. A hell of a lot of people are low or non-tasters, so basically they could vape gnat's piss and as long as you tell them it is ripe strawberry (for example) then they would tell you it tastes just like it. The name of the juice (and manufacturer description) plays a large part in how low & non-tasters will perceive the juice.
This is perhaps why supertasters (like myself) often find that the juice tastes nothing like the description.

As for M&H, I was under the impression that the name was derived from the biblical 'Land of milk & honey', meaning that it signified vaping paradise or whatever, rather than being a description of the taste of the juice.

Some of the additives that you elude to have been talked about a lot in the forum, people have come up with non-chemical versions (not sure how closely they resemble the pure chemical versions) for them:
Use in small amounts, 1-3 drops per 10ml (?)
Cider Vinegar/White wine vinegar/vinegar - bakery/creamy/tobacco juices {Used as alternative to malic acid }
lemon juice - to make fruity juices 'pop'
saline (salt dissolved in water) - adds body and smooths apparently

Some swear by the use of these ingredients in their e-liquids, but others say that using them turns the e-liquid bland after a short period of time (a week or so?).