[CLOSED - Out of business]

[Mr.Mann]

Hey Mr. Mann...

I saw your question on the general WTA discussion thread,
"From what I understand, nornicotine and cotinine are both minor/secondary alkaloids and metabolites of nicotine, but nornictoine is in a fairly high percentage of the famous "5%". I am finding conflicting information about whether nornicotine even has any MAOI effects--most of what I can tell is that it mostly "acts" like nic. I guess what I am asking is that if nornicotine is a "major" minor alkaloid, but it doesn't seem to be all that impressive for the part that we're looking for when vaping WTA, is its presence needed? Or is this the scenario where isolating a specific alkaloid would be too prohibitive and just not worth the hassle?"

Thought this study probably confirms your impression that nornicotine seems to have less synergistic effects with nicotine than the other prevalent minor alkaloids...at least in rats.

The addition of five minor tobacc... [Int J Neuropsychopharmacol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

Dude, I was right about to re-post that here. Too funny.

Oh, and I have that same study open up on my computer already. LOL Although, mine is from http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6382912 (same study though).

 

[FL Lori]

Hmmm i take drugs that cannot be taken while on a MAOI. Interesting new avenue to persue.

 

[Mr.Mann]

JF, how much of a pain in the ... is it to isolate (out) one of the alkaloids. Has WC ever tried it?

 

[FL Lori]

JF, how much of a pain in the ... is it to isolate (out) one of the alkaloids. Has WC ever tried it?

I wanted the same answer but i am waiting til he is up and running. Just wondering are you asking on my behalf?

 

[Mr.Mann]

I wanted the same answer but i am waiting til he is up and running. Just wondering are you asking on my behalf?

No. I really was interested to find out if nornicotine even needs to be in WTA. Maybe it could be the great (roughly) 3% of minor alkaloids.

Hmmm i take drugs that cannot be taken while on a MAOI. Interesting new avenue to persue.

Also--and this is total bro-science, so I am not qaulified to really say--but if there is an issue with MAOIs in WTA, wouldn't that be the same issue in cigarettes? Does the medication preclude you from smoking?

 

[jfresh]

JF, how much of a pain in the ... is it to isolate (out) one of the alkaloids. Has WC ever tried it?

No. We haven't. It is well beyond my knowledge base to even answer the question intelligently. It may require some pretty sophisticated techniques.

I'll discuss it with our R&D chemistry consultant the next chance I have. He's out of town attending a wedding at the moment.

I think one possibility may be vacuum distillation, as these compounds are likely to have (at least slightly) different boiling points....another may be (and this is a big maybe) that some alkaloids, and I only vaguely remember reading this, are not steam volitile (most are) and that could be a way of separating out at least some particular alkaloids. But I'm not sure which...or even if I remember this correctly.

Interesting subject, and I wish I had an answer for you.

 

[FL Lori]

No. I really was interested to find out if nornicotine even needs to be in WTA. Maybe it could be the great (roughly) 3% of minor alkaloids.



Also--and this is total bro-science, so I am not qaulified to really say--but if there is an issue with MAOIs in WTA, wouldn't that be the same issue in cigarettes? Does the medication preclude you from smoking?

You would think. Nothing stops me from smoking And IMO wholecig juice is wonderful!!! I learned to love it as is and i am not a baccy vapor. Great stuff here

 

[Mr.Mann]

No. We haven't. It is well beyond my knowledge base to even answer the question intelligently. It may require some pretty sophisticated techniques.

I'll discuss it with our R&D chemistry consultant the next chance I have. He's out of town attending a wedding at the moment.

I think one possibility may be vacuum distillation, as these compounds are likely to have (at least slightly) different boiling points....another may be (and this is a big maybe) that some alkaloids, and I only vaguely remember reading this, are not steam volitile (most are) and that could be a way of separating out at least some particular alkaloids. But I'm not sure which...or even if I remember this correctly.

Interesting subject, and I wish I had an answer for you.

No worries. Even BT still can't get a total grasp of tobacco and all its constituents.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Oh, and for anyone reading this, as far as I am concerned, JF and I are just talking shop! (FL Lori's particular issue is different, but nonetheless important for her.) I have a bottle of WC WTA right in front of me with about 2-3 drops left in it--I am not thinking about nornicotine after this next vape; it'll just be about waiting for my next bottles to come in. Period.

Sometimes I can forget that others aren't researching this stuff the way some of us do. The majority, literally, THE MAJORITY, of all of this is beyond my understanding, but I like the topic and it really intrigues me to learn more about that which I partake in and that which used to have a major hold over me.

 

[FL Lori]

Oh, and for anyone reading this, as far as I am concerned,me and JF are just talking shop! I have a bottle of WC WTA right in front of me with about 2-3 drops left in it--I am not thinking about nornicotine after this next vape; it'll just be about waiting for my next bottles to come in. Period.

Sometimes I can forget that others aren't researching this stuff the way some of us do. The majority, literally, THE MAJORITY, of all of this is beyond my understanding, but I like the topic and it really intrigues me to learn more about that which I partake in and that which used to have a major hold over me.

In other words its a great product and a available!

 

[jfresh]

I think we may have figured out what happened to the first shipment, Mr. Mann...the one that didn't arrive, we had one other customer not receive their shipment (we've mailed out replacement bottles) and it may simply be the self-seal flap on the priority boxes isn't sticking always...we're going to tape it up nicely from now on.

Hang in there, Mr. Mann.

Replacements mailed out yesterday.

And sorry about that....

 

[aikanae1]

Oh, and for anyone reading this, as far as I am concerned, JF and I are just talking shop! (FL Lori's particular issue is different, but nonetheless important for her.) I have a bottle of WC WTA right in front of me with about 2-3 drops left in it--I am not thinking about nornicotine after this next vape; it'll just be about waiting for my next bottles to come in. Period.

Sometimes I can forget that others aren't researching this stuff the way some of us do. The majority, literally, THE MAJORITY, of all of this is beyond my understanding, but I like the topic and it really intrigues me to learn more about that which I partake in and that which used to have a major hold over me.

Talk away. I'm intriqued for no particular reason. I'd say it was about time that reseach went into this direction.

 

[jfresh]

Here's an interesting paper. Sort of implies that nornicotine IS actually physiologically significant, perhaps specifically in terms of how long the effects (of cigarettes) tend to last.
"Pharmacokinetic
studies demonstrate that the half-life of nornicotine in brain
is 166 min, which is three times longer than that of nicotine
(52 min) (Ghosheh
et al.
1999), thus yielding a longer
residence time for nornicotine in brain relative to nicotine."

The pharmacological activity of nicotine and nornicotine on nAChRs subtypes: relevance to nicotine dependence and drug discovery - Papke - 2006 - Journal of Neurochemistry - Wiley Online Library

I have literally dozens of bookmarked studies that I haven't looked at in about a year...this is awesome getting back into the speculative aspects of WTA.

Thanks!

 

[Mr.Mann]

In other words its a great product and a available!

...........................

 

[Mr.Mann]

Here's an interesting paper. Sort of implies that nornicotine IS actually physiologically significant, perhaps specifically in terms of how long the effects (of cigarettes) tend to last.
"Pharmacokinetic
studies demonstrate that the half-life of nornicotine in brain
is 166 min, which is three times longer than that of nicotine
(52 min) (Ghosheh
et al.
1999), thus yielding a longer
residence time for nornicotine in brain relative to nicotine."

The pharmacological activity of nicotine and nornicotine on nAChRs subtypes: relevance to nicotine dependence and drug discovery - Papke - 2006 - Journal of Neurochemistry - Wiley Online Library

I have literally dozens of bookmarked studies that I haven't looked at in about a year...this is awesome getting back into the speculative aspects of WTA.

Thanks!

Guess what? Yep! I got that one open too. I can only understand a small portion, but the more I read it, the more I can extrapolate from it.

I edited my post in the other thread to bring up the notion that if nornic is out, then I guess it isn't "whole" anymore. I guess the point is that at the end of the day, it's harm reduction and this is still not smoking. Far. From. It. But, not as far away from smoking as regular nic juice. I have smoked a couple times this year and I can say that a box of cigarettes vs. a 30 mL of WTA is no brainer. At least for me, I'll take the 30 mL! Hell, I'll take a 30 mL of straight VG over a box of cigs if I have too though.

The other pages I have open right now are studies about other supplements (exercise). I am trying to diversify today.

 

[FL Lori]

Here's an interesting paper. Sort of implies that nornicotine IS actually physiologically significant, perhaps specifically in terms of how long the effects (of cigarettes) tend to last.
"Pharmacokinetic
studies demonstrate that the half-life of nornicotine in brain
is 166 min, which is three times longer than that of nicotine
(52 min) (Ghosheh
et al.
1999), thus yielding a longer
residence time for nornicotine in brain relative to nicotine."

The pharmacological activity of nicotine and nornicotine on nAChRs subtypes: relevance to nicotine dependence and drug discovery - Papke - 2006 - Journal of Neurochemistry - Wiley Online Library

I have literally dozens of bookmarked studies that I haven't looked at in about a year...this is awesome getting back into the speculative aspects of WTA.

Thanks!

No, thank you. You have been such a Godsend to many.

 

[yummi4tunekookie]

Oh, and for anyone reading this, as far as I am concerned, JF and I are just talking shop! (FL Lori's particular issue is different, but nonetheless important for her.) I have a bottle of WC WTA right in front of me with about 2-3 drops left in it--I am not thinking about nornicotine after this next vape; it'll just be about waiting for my next bottles to come in. Period.

Sometimes I can forget that others aren't researching this stuff the way some of us do. The majority, literally, THE MAJORITY, of all of this is beyond my understanding, but I like the topic and it really intrigues me to learn more about that which I partake in and that which used to have a major hold over me.

I'm in the same boat--I've got just a few drops left as well and a couple more bottles on their way!

 

[It's Only Me]

Oh, and for anyone reading this, as far as I am concerned, JF and I are just talking shop! (FL Lori's particular issue is different, but nonetheless important for her.) I have a bottle of WC WTA right in front of me with about 2-3 drops left in it--I am not thinking about nornicotine after this next vape; it'll just be about waiting for my next bottles to come in. Period.

Sometimes I can forget that others aren't researching this stuff the way some of us do. The majority, literally, THE MAJORITY, of all of this is beyond my understanding, but I like the topic and it really intrigues me to learn more about that which I partake in and that which used to have a major hold over me.

Well, I for one am really glad you and other intelligent people are having these discussions. I would bet the majority is also.
I find myself unintelligent when it comes to this subject.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Well, I for one am really glad you and other intelligent people are having these discussions. I would bet the majority is also.
I find myself unintelligent when it comes to this subject.

I have just learned what to look for, and how to look for it when researching. Most of the stuff I talk about is the bare minimum of understanding I can get from the topic--but that happens to be about the extent of which I am currently interested. I'll likely be more interested the more I know.

 

[Wow1420]

Off on a tangent regarding separating out the alkoloids, anatabine is sold as an anti-inflamatory "dietary supplement".
I have no idea if they are extracting it from tobacco or making it synthetically.


I like researching this stuff too, however with no chemistry or biology background I get frustrated at how much of the literature goes right over my head. And I don't really trust the pop-press simplifications.