Common Sense and the Unknown

[rolygate]

E-cigs have been classified as a tobacco product by the courts and are due to be regulated as such by the FDA (in the USA). It is unclear at this time whether the hardware and refills or only the liquid is covered.

Very little is known about the inhalation of flavors because it has never been done extensively before, with some exceptions that don't really apply to e-cigs. An example is aromatherapy oils, but since oils clog an atomizer they are avoided in e-liquid. From personal experimentation, very small amounts of oils such as pure peppermint (with alcohol to help dissolve it) can be used with no effect on atomizers (or the recipient) but in general they are avoided.

The only flavor that is proven to have harmful consequences is diacetyl. Some others are expected to cause problems, such as some types of cinnamon, and capsaicin (chilli extract), both of which can be used to increase TH. Others have been questioned, such as some types of vanilla. There are hundreds if not thousands that have no research or comments of any kind.

Incidentally mineral oil should not be inhaled as it can cause lipoid pneumonia, aka 'paraffin lung', which is also the occupational disease of fire-eaters. It can affect seniors who use paraffin (kerosene) as a laxative and breathe the fumes as they swallow it. The same disease can apparently be caused by the purified butter fed to babies in some Asian countries, as they breathe the fumes while swallowing. Aromatherapy-type oils are not known to have issues, although this may simply be due to the reduced quantity used as compared to paraffin for laxatives.

 

[paladinx]

Thanks for that, great information. Guess I will be staying away from buttery flavors.

 

[sweetmeat]

I was looking at a few diy supply places today and they had a buttered popcorn flavor that specifically said NO DIACETYL next to it, so just make sure you check out the vendors first

 

[kinabaloo]

Oh really? I didn't know e-liquid was considered a tobacco product.. I mean isn't all nicotine really an extract from a tobacco plant? I thought the same was true about patches or nicotine gum.

Something becomes a 'drug' if it makes claims with regard to health and illness. Hence e-xigs cannot make any claim about being safer or or helping one to quit smoking. Even vitamins are prevented from saying what they are good for. It's absurd; it's just about control and profits for the big fish.

 

[kinabaloo]

I've seen some pictures of people's e-liquids where some look like ink they are that dark!

But my main concern, as it is a key ingredient, is the safety of inahing PG and VG (esp. long term). They are not toxic. However, PG can be irritating and VG is very slow to evaporate (how well or not it is absorbed by the lungs is unknown). So potentially both could lead to chronic bronchitis (inflammation) which is experienced as wheezing/difficulty breathing and extra mucous needing to be coughed up (and which is extra sticky).

If you get these symptoms, try not to deep lung inhale. If it persists, stop vaping for 1-2 weeks and see if things improve. Then try again, with minmal lung inhalation. If these symptoms return again then you would have to try vaping less (look into WTA and snus). There will be some people who just can't do the inhalation of PG or VG without this result. While PG is far more likely to cause classic intolerance, imo VG is more likely to cause the sticky mucous issue. A no-glycol e-liquid would be welcome.

The danger of ignoring chronic bronchitis is increased chance of a serious lung infection, such as pneumonia. The older you are the more likely to get this proble, and the more careful you need to be about it.

This issue could present as fast as a day or two. It's not easy to differentiate this from smoking withdrawal (detox) and getting a cold, so don't be too quick to jump to conclusions, but cut down or stop vaping in the meantime.

 

[rolygate]

Yes, many of us will agree with this.

As regards PG I don't think there are many different ways to make it (different sources). But for VG, there are several, and my feeling is that some of these methods should not be used.

I found that one brand of VG e-liquid caused severe problems after less than a week. Other brands have no effect at all. People who say, "I can't take VG" should probably ensure they've tried several brands before they finally decide; one brand can be very different from another.

I use 100% VG and normally cough up a very small amount of light phlegm a couple of times a day - and regard that as a good thing, as it might clear out various things. In contrast to smoking it doesn't seem to produce a dry, wheezing effect.

Inevitably some will prove intolerant to the current materials used in vaping, but I think they will have plenty of warning before things get too serious.

 

[kinabaloo]

Yes, many of us will agree with this.

As regards PG I don't think there are many different ways to make it (different sources). But for VG, there are several, and my feeling is that some of these methods should not be used.

I found that one brand of VG e-liquid caused severe problems after less than a week. Other brands have no effect at all. People who say, "I can't take VG" should probably ensure they've tried several brands before they finally decide; one brand can be very different from another.

I use 100% VG and normally cough up a very small amount of light phlegm a couple of times a day - and regard that as a good thing, as it might clear out various things. In contrast to smoking it doesn't seem to produce a dry, wheezing effect.

Inevitably some will prove intolerant to the current materials used in vaping, but I think they will have plenty of warning before things get too serious.

I noticed you say this vefore about VG and will try to look into it.

Certainly PG should be pharma grade (USP / BP).

I think the thing to watch for with phlegm is : is it sticky/bubbly and do you also feel wheezing/a serious sounding cough - those things I think mark the difference.

I was about to add that the phlegm issue could be more widesread than just affecting the odd few. But by taking care not to do the deep lung inhale thing (it's not really necessary) and not vaping non-stop, most people will hopefully be able to avoid it.

 

[kinabaloo]

ps: the different qualities of VG makes sense; some is a by(waste)-product of making biofuel from rancid deep-fry chip fat - that would not be good choice!

I think we should name names and keep a tab of which are the best choices.

 

[rolygate]

I heard these methods could be used to make glycerine* although it is not my area, so have no idea if it's correct:

- A by-product of biofuel
- From animal carcases
- From palm oil
- From coconut oil
- Combination of palm oil and coconut oil

All I know is that one brand caused my lungs to pack up in four days, and any longer would have seen me in hospital. However I have extremely sensitive lungs. Useful for testing, though, as I tend to think that something I can inhale for a couple of years with no effect is probably fairly harmless. (I could only smoke a maximum of four or five cigs a day before the start of bronchitis was apparent.)

* Possibly, some of the materials we are exposed to are not strictly speaking VG i.e. vegetable.

 

[kinabaloo]

btw, with regard to relative safety numbers, if we are talking only chnace of getting cancer then yes vapiing is in the 1000+ times less risk area. But when i say 100x safer I am trying to sum up other possible health risks too. That's probably why the diffrence.

I;m not willing to go further than 1000 or so because chronic inflammation, for example, is a risk factor for cancer; it's not just about carcinogens/mutagens.

 

[kinabaloo]

I heard these methods could be used to make glycerine* although it is not my area, so have no idea if it's correct:

- A by-product of biofuel
- From animal carcases
- From palm oil
- From coconut oil
- Combination of palm oil and coconut oil

All I know is that one brand caused my lungs to pack up in four days, and any longer would have seen me in hospital. However I have extremely sensitive lungs. Useful for testing, though, as I tend to think that something I can inhale for a couple of years with no effect is probably fairly harmless. (I could only smoke a maximum of four or five cigs a day before the start of bronchitis was apparent.)

* Possibly, some of the materials we are exposed to are not strictly speaking VG i.e. vegetable.

One way is purely chemical, neither vegatable or animal - from PG.

If it is from a fresh oil (directly) - either coconut or palm could be good as they are stable oils (more saturated), that would be better. But ideally you'd want cold-pressed oils to be used (extra virgin), not those extracted by heat and chemicals like CTF (to get the last dregs out). So there's plenty of scope for contaminants and degraded constituents.

 

[kinabaloo]

Quick explanation on why I don'y like things like citric acid or stevia in e-liquids. These are organic molecules with covalent bonding. When they get concentrated and precipitated from the e-liquid as they do not vaporise (save a tiny bit that gets blasted out by the turbulence and shock waves of the boiling process), they will 'ash' (decompose) on the heater coil.

The carbonates in your kettle are inorganic and preciptate on the element without decomposotion because they are a constituent of rock.

Besides, some of these are big molecules and might nt be well aborbed from the lungs, to the extent that they reach there.

 

[kinabaloo]

Polyunsaturates - good in food, not good extracted as oils - oxidise almost immediately. Get them from whole foods (nuts, seeds,vegetables, ...). Use oilve oil, cocnut oil for cooking.

If interested look into for example the work of Mary Enig. Haert disease was spiked by trans fats as found in things like the margarines, used for decades until recently, by hydrogenation (involves the significance of molecular layout, not just formula; the layout is key in how molecules interact; trans as opposed to cis layout is very rare in nature, and in the body these molecules malfunction/dont function, gumming up the works).

 

[Cokeybill]

Best thread on ECF that I have read. Great feedback by several members, info and contrasts are remarkably mature and well thought out.
Oh BTW, I would like to see more vendors and manufacturers of juice put out a contents label on the botttles. it would be nice to see what we are vaping into our lungs. Even cig packs have info on them so we can defy how long we live.
Cheers ppl and keep the thread going and maybe this just might stir a new path for vapers.

 

[paladinx]

Yeah I agree, I am happy the way this thread turned out. Usually threads like these turn into back and forth arguments but everyone is saying great points and providing good information and insight.. That was my intention for creating this thread..
I think the best point that we are considering is talking about risks relative to e-cigs themselves.. I think we are over the part of comparing e-liquid to cigarettes and stating the obvious by saying everything in a cigarette that is NOT in an e-cig. That is the simple part. But the hard part is looking at a whole new list of risk factors that might be in E-cigs specifically. I have heard time and again that PG is totally safe to inhale because years ago they did some test on monkeys.. and that it is in fog machines or asthma inhalers. I don't believe anyone has heated up PG with other chemicals and ingredients and in haled it on a consistent basis 7 days a week. I have no idea what it does.. I know its not toxic, but perhaps it accumulates in the lungs,, Who the hell knows.. its speculation.. I just notice a lot of people getting these side effects and everyone always just blames it on an allergy. I don't think people are allergic to PG as many times as the word is used.. I think it is just a side effect in some people for whatever reason..

It sounds like the safest thing to do is not inhale into the lungs.. or limit how often you do it. That is kind of hard because that is the whole appeal for me.. Otherwise i probably would just puff on cigars here and there. I am very happy that the moderators and long-time members here are contributing and giving their honest advice and their own trial and errors. Thanks guys.

 

[rolygate]

It's hard to see from my point of view how e-cigs will turn out any less than 100 times as safe as smoking. But there are at least three vectors for the creation of problems: abuse by users; intolerance for some individuals; contamination of materials due to lack of quality controls and testing.

I don't think reactions to or issues caused by materials can be said to be allergies, intolerance seems more accurate. Because there is such a wide range of ingredients, all untested for the purpose, intolerance issues will be fairly common. By this is meant that some individuals will not be able to tolerate some ingredients. However I think that in general, people will get plenty of notice that something is problematic, and allow them to change before damage is done.

Some forms of contamination, though, may cause toxic compounds to accumulate before any harm is noticed. There is nothing that can be done about this until extensive testing is commonplace. Only consumer associations forcing vendors to test will solve this issue.

The main problem I foresee is abuse by individuals, as there is no way to prevent it. For example long-term over-consumption of nicotine may have implications. Vaping 10ml a day cannot be described as a safe practice. Some people who experienced a severe intolerance issue reported that, for some reason, they didn't throw the new e-liquid away but instead kept trying it to see if it was really the cause, and got worse. You can't do much about these things.

Maybe a consumer group can pressure vendors into proper testing, and issue a seal of approval to those who comply with certain requirements, and warn about those who are reported to supply problem materials and won't supply any for testing.

On the whole I'm very positive about it although there are likely to be many bumps on the road. The main problem I see is that this is a whole new product area that has absolutely no history and no regulation, along with people inhaling large quantities of unknown materials made by unverified makers, for decades. Luckily it is intrinsically reasonably safe, but there will be plenty of problems to sort out.

ECF is just a resource, and we can't start telling people what to do as that is way over the mark. That's a job for consumer associations. You need to join yours and make your voice heard. Anything to avoid government regulation, as they have enormous potential to completely ruin it for everyone - in the name of 'safety' of course, but conveniently diverting the income stream, and magnifying it for the benefit of those who deserve nothing except a hard boot in the groin.

 

[cloudshroud]

It's hard to see from my point of view how e-cigs will turn out any less than 100 times as safe as smoking. But there are at least three vectors for the creation of problems: abuse by users; intolerance for some individuals; contamination of materials due to lack of quality controls and testing.

The problem of course is that there are so may entities gunning for the implosion of the e-cig industry that there may never be a chance for reasonable self-correction.

 

[paladinx]

One thing I am not sure about.. when people say don't take a deep "lung" inhale.. Is that when you breath into the device rather than like puffing it first into the mouth than inhaling? I always inhale the same way i smoke a cigarette,, Its like an initial puff that brings the smoking into your mouth, than an inhale after.. Not a straight breathing in inhale if that makes sense

 

[kinabaloo]

One thing I am not sure about.. when people say don't take a deep "lung" inhale.. Is that when you breath into the device rather than like puffing it first into the mouth than inhaling? I always inhale the same way i smoke a cigarette,, Its like an initial puff that brings the smoking into your mouth, than an inhale after.. Not a straight breathing in inhale if that makes sense

I mean not to breathe into the lungs deliberately, either directly or after first into the mouth.

Was just trying the deep lung inhale after being out of the habit for some time, and was surprised to find it left my lungs feeling a bit wier for quite some time after; nor did I find it any more of a 'hit'. A slow elease through the nose I find good.

This should reduce the glycols deposited in the lungs to <10% which is clearly very significant.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm not in favor of government (corporate) regulation, but the consumer group type independent body that Roly mentions is a good way forward. Just being able to list who meets various criteria and who has persistent problems made against them would be power enough. Offering various badges would be a good incentive too; perhaps even one for providing a 1% or 0.1% of profits towatds running/testing costs.

Things that could be considered:
Publishes contents
Contents test out as stated and no other constituents are found
If manufacturing dates are clearly marked
Dry residue test results
etc