Common Sense and the Unknown

[Rar]

The articles I read on what could cause COPD exacerbations, indicated that it could be most anything from an infection to cold weather. The article also said that most of the causes were unknown....it just happened. I think in my specific case, (if it weren't the e-cigs), it could be the cold weather aggravating my lungs during a particularly brutal walk with my dog one rainy cold evening. On the other hand, I am worried it could be my e-cigs, which, of course, I don't want it to be.

 

[paladinx]

But don't you see that any side effects anyone gets, they don't want to stop vaping so they can find a billion reasons for the cause.. So how do we even know what is caused from vaping.. In your cause maybe you are 100 percent right.. But there have been cases I have seen on here that common sense would lead anyone to think it was vaping.. but everyone dismisses it completely.. Like its impossible. Many people say they cough up a clear liquid from the lungs.. that doesn't sound too good.. it means the liquid is accumulating.. I think fluid accumulation in the lungs can lead to infections.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm currently suffering from what was diagnosed as a COPD exacerbation. I thought it was bronchitis because of the extra sticky mucus, wheezing and coughing. The doc said I might have a touch of bronchitis, but it was a COPD exacerbation. I wasn't even sure I had COPD, so that was a bit startling. I am 7 mos smoke free and have been vaping for about 8 months. I'm trying to think of the differences in my vaping habits to possibly cause this. I think it could one of two things - maybe it's a combination of each of them. I began using cartos in addition to dripping. Also, I was primarily vaping a juice with 30pg/70vg. Presently the juices with 70pg/30vg are making me cough (my bronchial tubes are still sensitive). So, I'm not sure. One thing I do know...this COPD thing really scared me because I couldn't breathe. I will have to try to alter my inhaling techniques. Thanks for this post.

COPD is generally a combination of chronic bronchitis (CB) (inflammation) and emphysema (lung tissue damage). The former can contribute to the later but emphysema is not simply CB that's more severe, though in a sense that is true. In emphysema, the tissues of the tiniest air-sacs (aveoli) lose their ability to stretch and maintain shape, much like aging skin and in part that is in both cases due to diminished regeneration of elastin. But what makes smokers emphysema worse (it is part of aging too), and earlier, is the deposits of tar that have built up over the years ('black lung').

 

[kinabaloo]

@Rar

ps: avoid all kinds of perfumes, room fragrances, aerolsols (anti-persoirant sprays end such), ...

And make sure there is no mold anywhere in the house.

Air filters and / or ionisers - even a humidifier, if appropriate - can help.

You mentioned a dog so that's another area to look into.

The following supplements are helpful : CoQ10 (improves cells' efficient use of oxygen) and NAC (n-acetyl cysteine).

 

[Baldr]

Common sense tells me that vaping is much, much healthier than smoking. Common sense tells me that breathing clean air is probably healthier than vaping.

If I can use vaping as a tool to quit smoking, and then I can quit vaping, I will.

If I vape the rest of my life, I think it's almost certainly better for me than if I smoked the rest of my life. I'd tried to quit smoking many times, and it didn't go anywhere. Vaping is a better alternative, and it's working.

 

[trinifreak]

I got some really good information from reading this post. One assumes that most US/UK suppliers uses the best of the best ingredients to make e-liquid and now I question that assumption of mine.

I know this sounds like a stupid question, but one thing I got from this was buttery flavors = BAD. I have butterscotch and yes I know the word butter is in there, but is that what were referring to or is the consistency of the liquid as buttery?

 

[kinabaloo]

I got some really good information from reading this post. One assumes that most US/UK suppliers uses the best of the best ingredients to make e-liquid and now I question that assumption of mine.

That would indeed be a bad assumption. Chinese e-liquid producers produce much of the bulk nicoine liquid and they are professional in that, but what happens next in the question; western companies mostly do the flavoring and dilution, often w/o much scientific knowledge - even to know the difference between digestion and inhalation, or solubility and boiling point. Or to research whether there are known issues with certain flavorings.

There are western componies doing a god job - you just need to do the research. Any organisation that takes a cut can't be trusted.

 

[paladinx]

Yeah thats the thing. I don't know who is making my juice or what they do. Its all assumptions and guesses. I mean yeah cigarettes are dumb, forget about that for example, but what other things do we ingest in our body without any care. I mean I won't even eat in a dirty restaurant lol.

You know what I want to see, people who have been vaping steady for 10 plus years and have them say wow this is great, so much better than smoking, I feel healthy yadda yadda.. We get people who are vaping for as little as a month or two telling us how much better it is. Maybe it is and you feel great right now because your not breathing in smoke, but I would like to hear from people who have been vaping steady since this stuff started.. at the LEAST.

Let me ask you something. Nicotine is a deadly poison.. Its completely toxic in even small doses.. What if someone starts up a company tomorrow and they really do not know what they are doing and they don't end up cutting down the nicotine properly and someone who has a health problem buys it and overdoses and dies. Or their juice is contaminated and someone buys it with COPD and gets an infection and dies. I mean it is a possibility with no real regulation.. That is why I hope the community and the industry tries to self regulate a bit and give power and credit to those who are taking care to provide us with the best quality they can.. Everyone is too gung-ho and too happy they quit smoking cigarettes to start thinking rationally and long-term. Oh its vapor it doesn't have tar, f#ck the rest. If you are right, than you have nothing to lose or worry about, but if your wrong than its going to be bad.. So why not error on the side of caution. It would be beneficial to everyone and the industry as a whole.

 

[Baldr]

Nicotine is a deadly poison.. Its completely toxic in even small doses.

It's really hard to take you seriously when you say things like this. Millions of peole use nicotine every day. If reality matched your words, there would a lot of death going on. Chances are, it would be in the news.

 

[Stubby]

Let me ask you something. Nicotine is a deadly poison.. Its completely toxic in even small doses.. What if someone starts up a company tomorrow and they really do not know what they are doing and they don't end up cutting down the nicotine properly and someone who has a health problem buys it and overdoses and dies. Or their juice is contaminated and someone buys it with COPD and gets an infection and dies. I mean it is a possibility with no real regulation.. That is why I hope the community and the industry tries to self regulate a bit and give power and credit to those who are taking care to provide us with the best quality they can.. Everyone is too gung-ho and too happy they quit smoking cigarettes to start thinking rationally and long-term. Oh its vapor it doesn't have tar, f#ck the rest. If you are right, than you have nothing to lose or worry about, but if your wrong than its going to be bad.. So why not error on the side of caution. It would be beneficial to everyone and the industry as a whole.

I know of only one vender in the US that can be trusted and that is Johnson Creek. They use actual clean rooms for mixing with trained professional people working for the company. Unfortunately they do use citric acid but that could be the lesser of greater potential evils. There may be others but if so they are not advertising the fact.

I have not a clue as to the rest. They say nothing on their web sites. I have to assume that if they are not saying anything it's not happening. I would love to see where this stuff is getting mixed and who is doing it. I hate to say it but it may not be a pretty picture. To many people out for a quick dollar. Anyone can go into business. Buy a bunch of if 100 mg non flavored liquid, mix it down in some mason jars with some flavorings, and ya ha... we got rocken socken eeee-liquid. You can probably go into business for under a few thousand if that.

 

[Baldr]

I'm reminded of a news story here in Texas. They recently changed the law, and it is now legal in Texas to bake a cake at home and sell it. (Me googles for the article.)

https://www.facebook.com/notes/texas-bakers-bill/dallas-morning-news-come-and-bake-it-article/273447819355482


A quote from the article :

“We took a paradigm shift backwards in terms of food safety,” said Cindy Corley, environmental health manager for the city of Garland, who testified against the legislation.

“Now we are going to allow people to cook out of their homes.”

Oh, the horror. People cooking in their homes. Ghastly.

All of this "OMG, they can go into business without spending a billion dollars" stuff reminds me of that.

 

[Rar]

Many people say they cough up a clear liquid from the lungs.. that doesn't sound too good.. it means the liquid is accumulating.. I think fluid accumulation in the lungs can lead to infections.

This is what was happening to me. My doctor diagnosed me with a COPD exacerbation. The bronchial tubes become inflamed from some cause - could be e-cigarettes, pollution, cold weather, anything, then they produce more mucus.

 

[Rar]

@Rar

ps: avoid all kinds of perfumes, room fragrances, aerolsols (anti-persoirant sprays end such), ...

And make sure there is no mold anywhere in the house.

Air filters and / or ionisers - even a humidifier, if appropriate - can help.

You mentioned a dog so that's another area to look into.

The following supplements are helpful : CoQ10 (improves cells' efficient use of oxygen) and NAC (n-acetyl cysteine).

Thanks Kinabaloo for the tips. I'm going to check out the supplements. My dog is a Shih Tzu and doesn't shed. I recently moved from a house where we heated with wood - no problem with breathing then. One thing I considered, though my doctor didn't think it was a cause, is that in the last couple of months, I've been attending a water aerobics class. I researched it online and believed the chlorine was aggravating my lungs.

It could be a combination of all these things - e-cig, chlorine, cold, that simply caused an inflammation. I think I agree with most everyone else in that there has to be a moderation. I'm being careful of breathing in cold air, I'm trying to not direct inhale with the e-cig and if the chlorine smell is too strong in the pool, I won't swim. Hopefully this will work.

 

[paladinx]

"It's really hard to take you seriously when you say things like this. Millions of peole use nicotine every day. If reality matched your words, there would a lot of death going on. Chances are, it would be in the news."

Why is it hard to take me seriously when I am stating a fact. Nicotine is a poison. Of course in small amounts found in e-cigs and cigarettes in the mg's it gets digested by our body ok, but thats just in very small doses.. In larger doses nicotine is very toxic. People use nicotine primarily found in tobacco naturally, which is in small doses.. and patches and gums are made in lab's and handled with care, again in small doses.. The point I made is that if anyone slipped up and gave u a high dose of nicotine, it could make you very sick, and has the potential to even kill you.; Pound for pound nicotine is very dangerous. Imagine nicotine liquid thats 100mg's didn't get diluted properly and your consuming that.

 

[rolygate]

Let's all calm down please.

 

[jimik]

I would love to take a huge poll from the entire community of Users only.. no sellers.. on how long they have been vaping, how they feel etc. Just to get an idea of how well vaping is going for people and how many are actually having side effects etc.

I've been vaping since July of 2009 so, at the time of this posting a bit over 2 years. For the past few months I have been having aches in my right lung. I am a heavy vapor, that uses probably 5ml of liquid a day, often diluted to 12mg using VG.

This will be the third time, where my lungs have pain while vaping.. I take a few days off and the pain goes away - but I don't think it is worth any risk. I have two kids, 3 and 5 that I want to be around for and a lot I want to do in life. Yes, this pain is only when I vape ecigs it is a dull ache that takes a few days to disappear- although I had similar lung aches when smoking cigaretts (which is why I swapped to vaping in the first place).

I'm not going to become an advocate against ecigs, but at the same time I think people should be aware that these are not proven to be a safe alternative. I could have cancer growing around in my lung at 37, perhaps it is just a bit sensitive right now - I don't know and am too poor to afford a test. If it is cancer, I am screwed regardless. Hopefully, it goes away in a few days. I would suggest using these things sparingly, and as a method to quit smoking - not replace it entirely.

Other side affects I noticed, when I first started vaping I would get light headed but that went away after learning how to vape and not overdo the nicotine.. The other side effect would be constant, but only temporary - trying to jog or walk for a while is a bit more difficult as my muscles seem strained in my legs - this is only if I do a heavy vaping session before going out.

I hate dissing a product that I have enjoyed for the better part of two years - I just don't want people to go around thinking they are perfectly safe vaping when in fact there just isn't enough long term studies. Perhaps my lungs are just sensitive, that is what I hope for both you and me

Peace

 

[Baldr]

The point I made is that if anyone slipped up and gave u a high dose of nicotine, it could make you very sick, and has the potential to even kill you.

Here is where your entire thing falls apart.

Millions of people use nicotine every day, and it's not killing them.

You claim it can kill - and I'm sure that if intentionally abused, it could. You can also drown to death. Automobiles are the #1 cause of accidental death by a very large margin. Pretty much anything, if abused, can kill.

You're screaming about how unsafe nicotine is. Give me one example of someone dying from vaping this "toxic poison" that you are crying about. One example shouldn't be too hard if it's as dangerous as you say.

Without even one good example to back you up, all of the "It's a toxic poison, vaping will be fatal" stuff just sounds like nonsense.

 

[mel_vin]

Here is where your entire thing falls apart.

Millions of people use nicotine every day, and it's not killing them.

You claim it can kill - and I'm sure that if intentionally abused, it could. You can also drown to death. Automobiles are the #1 cause of accidental death by a very large margin. Pretty much anything, if abused, can kill.

You're screaming about how unsafe nicotine is. Give me one example of someone dying from vaping this "toxic poison" that you are crying about. One example shouldn't be too hard if it's as dangerous as you say.

Without even one good example to back you up, all of the "It's a toxic poison, vaping will be fatal" stuff just sounds like nonsense.

@Baldr

You seem a little on the defence regarding the "nicotine is a poison" statement. Then you lost me at wanting an example of someone dying as a result of vaping. Noboody instatly died from smoking a cigarette either or within "2 years" as many as the vetran vapers here...I can see where Paladinx's comment is a bit misleading, and needs clarification: Pure 100% liquid Nicotine can kill you, Im not sure what the exact amount is needed, but it is that toxic. People have OD'ed on it, There is a saying that 1 drop is all you need (from some movie I cant member now). The ammounts we get in our juices isnt enough, but the higher dosages of 36MG can make even the heaviest smokers really dizzy and faint...You certainly wouldnt want to leave your juices lying arround, and have a todler play with the bottles...( yes you can argue about cigarettes/lighters being dangerous too leaving them arround, but this is kinda different)

All you/we have is hunches, and people are saying its PROBABLY safer than smoking. Sure we know its the tars and the actual burning of the smoke/paper and other chemicals that gives us the cancer, and none of this is in ecigs.

But I certainly feel "different" if I use an ecig alot (when compared to cigarette). PG makes me feel like crap. 100% VG seems to make me Short of Breath. I havent played with the mixes, but thats thewhole point of this thread. we are doing all this unknown stuff: DIY juices, tea bag mods, variable voltage, seringe (spelling) filling..wtf?? This seems kinda chronic sometimes, and the things we do to get the best throat hit seems kinda insane sometimes.

Crap, I remember first smoking and getting a "buzz" and liking it...Yeah ya knew it was bad for you, but we ignored it....but it wasnt till after smoking for 10-15 years did I start to notice, hey Im a little out of breath running up these stairs...or hacking up a lung in morning....some people have noticed strange things right away with vaping, so awareness is key.

We want to believe its better for us, you cant deny that....I know I do! I liked smoking, and vaping was the closest thing to it, and it would really suck to find ou that it causes any harm, cancers and heart attacks aside. What if we are opening up a carn of new worms by vaping...we dont know.

 

[paladinx]

Excellent points Melvin. Well said, I agree with you. and you summed it up pretty perfectly in a fair and balanced way.

I mean nicotine by itself , pound for pound is a very toxic chemical. People mostly use nicotine naturally through tobacco, which has nicotine in small doses. Same with E-cigs. Your body can handle nicotine in small doses .. and I mean thousandths of a gram,, But in higher doses it can get you very sick or even kill you. No one handles pure nicotine that is why you don't see deaths or people getting sick. Its usually consumed naturally from tobacco.. and handled in labs where they make patches, gums etc. But now with e-cigs.. If someone messes up and doesn't properly dilute a 100mg nicotine solution.. You could be in some trouble. From my understanding you could purchase liquid nicotine that is potent enough to be serious.. if someone forgets to cut it or mix it right.. well. u get my drift. We are putting our faith and hoping that those who are selling us these products are doing things as safe and right as possible. But there is no guarantee.

Anyone can mix this stuff and sell it. There is no regulation, there is no test or license.. Potentially ANYONE could do it and no one has any real idea how they are doing it and under what conditions. That is the whole point. That is why I keep saying its crucial for some self-regulation in this community.. give incentives to those who are proving something... Buy and promote vendors who are taking an initiative. Because in the end.. All it will take is a few people getting sick and some solid proof linking it to these devices and I think the whole industry will be in trouble.

My question to you guys is this.. . How come the FDA hasn't already banned these devices? It is not in their best interest , so why haven't they? I would assume they have the power to ban them. Do you think they are just waiting for the popularity of the industry to rise and than take it over? Or do you think they are just waiting for the smoking gun or the right time to act.

 

[trinifreak]

I could be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that nicotine is used as a pesticide and insecticide. If my assumption is correct I am quite sure it should be considered as a poison. I could misunderstand the mechanism of the nicotine in agriculture.

I think that what most are unaware of is the long term damage caused by e-cigs, the effects of pg and vg used long term. I am not bashing the community because I have learned a great deal from others on here; however, it seems that when someone states that they have an allergy or something that is affecting them negatively some people (not all) will pounce on the person. We need to have an opened mind. I would love to hear from vapers who have been using e-cigs for more than 2 years.

On a personal note e-cigs have worked wonders for me I went from 24mg to 6mg of nic in 8 months. I am not out of breath when I run up the stairs, blood pressure decreased, skin looks better, I can taste food, I don't cough and my sex life is better!