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Comparison of VTC4, VTC5, LG ICR18650HE2 and Samsung INR18650-25R

Discussion in 'Batteries and Chargers' started by Ryedan, Aug 10, 2014.

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  1. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    I've been wanting to do a comparison of the Sony VTC4, VTC5, LG ICR18650HE2 and Samsung INR18650-25R for a while now.

    Here's a chart of these batteries at 5A discharge, in 2 second bursts from the dampfakkus.de website. 5A is the highest they chart at. The curves are the number of hits. If you want to, scroll to the bottom and look at the colored matrix. The values are mAh not hits, but the relationship of the two will be the same. In other words, if one battery did 98% of the hits of another battery, it also scores 98% of the mAh. The grey numbers are volts under load. I know my voltage drop with VTC3 and VTC4 is around 0.5V at around 10A (0.4 ohms) in my mods and I change my batteries out typically at around 3.6V minimum, so I never go less than 3.1V under load and that is the lowest data I loo at in any charts.

    The rows in the matrix are the number of hits. For 3.2V you'll see the Samsung wins in the top three by a small margin and the chart gives you a visual of how close they actually are. The only real loser in this group is the VTC4. Keep in mind the numbers will likely change as the amp draw goes up and things could look better for another battery. I'm looking at 3.2V because the lower 5A discharge will have less V-drop than 10A does.

    Here are charts from Illumination Supply with VTC4, VTC5 and HE2 at continuous 20A and 35A discharge rates. 35A continuous on 20A batteries is very interesting. They do however write under the charts; 'Please do not attempt to do a continuous discharge without proper cooling. - Illumination Supply'. I know the VTC cells heat up above 20A continuous, specially the VTC5. It would be interesting to know if the other 2 heat up too.

    At 20A, down to 3.0V, the VTC5 is the clear winner and the HE2 is slightly better than the VTC4. At 35A, down to 2.7V the VTC5 is again the clear winner, the VTC4 comes in a solid second because of the strong mid range power and the HE2 comes in last.

    Here are Illumination Supply's charts of the counterfeit VTC5 (Samsung 25R), a real Samsung 25R, VTC4 and VTC5 at 20A and 35A. At 20A the VTC5 is a clear winner over the others and the 25Rs beat the VTC4. At 35A, without the VTC4, the 25R has less voltage drop for the first half, but the VTC5 then picks up and beats it from there and by around 100 mAh at 2.7V.

    So how do the HE2 and 25R compare to each other? I put both charts at 20A and both at 35A together, trying to align them as best I could.

    [​IMG]


    For the next one I took out the VTC4 curve for clarity. The VTC4 came in last place.
    [​IMG]

    I'm not suggesting it's safe to vape any of these batteries at 35A, but the data was out there and it's quite interesting.

    That's it, that's all I've got. I'm still learning how to work with these charts, so if anyone sees any mistakes I made please let me know. Also if anyone has more data on these batteries let me know too.
     
  2. pnyc

    pnyc Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 14, 2014
    xXx
    Without active cooling, any continuous discharge above 20A may damage the cell because the organic electrolyte will start to decompose above 60 degree C.
    See the chart below showing how hot a cell becomes under discharge (almost 80 degree C @20A and a whopping 100 degree C @30A):

    Discharge Temp..jpg
     
  3. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    Good stuff pnyc! Which cell is this for?
     
  4. pnyc

    pnyc Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 14, 2014
    xXx
    This comes from test data of a VTC4. The VTC5 has similar discharge temp. characteristics from the official data sheet but only up to 20A:

    Discharge Temp. Sony VTC5.jpg
     
  5. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    The text on the chart says VTC5.

    I have seen temperature results similar to that before pnyc. I didn't remember they heat up that high at 20A though, that's why I said in my OP 'above 20A'. I remember thinking they get scary hot at 30A. Since I saw this the first time I've always wondered about the 30A rating. This is of course for continuous discharge. The VTC3 and VTC4 don't heat up as much if I remember correctly.

    I hope someone has some temperature data on the HE2 and 25R batteries.
     
  6. pnyc

    pnyc Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 14, 2014
    xXx
    The VTC4 does heat up to 100 degree C @30A according to my first graph in post #2 (from official Sony data). However, Sony rates their performance based on 75 degree C cut off and restart at 50 degree C which puts the VTC4 slightly under 20A discharge for rating purpose.

    Sony VTC4 rating.jpg
     
  7. SintheticKarma

    SintheticKarma Senior Member Verified Member

    Jun 3, 2014
    Houston, TX, USA
    Awesome! My inner nerd solutes you, :) The 25R maintaining a higher voltage for the first 1000 mah is an interesting result. I wonder if that would translate into any real world results at a competition.
     
  8. Cyrus Vap

    Cyrus Vap Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 8, 2011
    Bay Area, California
    Wow this is great stuff thanks so much for this...wonder how the AW (1600 MAH) and MNKE would fare in this mix

    Also really interesting that the 25R does better (initially) than the VTC5 at 35A, but not at 20A, which seems counter intuitive?
     
  9. anumber1

    anumber1 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 14, 2014
    NW Ohio
    Great post! Thanks for pulling it all together. I know I have looked at the tests and paged back and forth between them but that overlay is nice.

    The fact that the sony batteries can and do reach 100c under 30A cont conditions is scary. Chuck your mod hot!
     
  10. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    Thanks SintheticKarma :). Yes, this really surprised me. The HE2 and 25R seemed so closely matched through 20A I was starting to think they might be the same battery. OTOH, this is just one set of data and I think Illumination Supply used cooling for these tests.
     
  11. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    I agree anumber1. This has bugged me since I first found out about it. I mean how can you rate a battery at 30A if it gets that hot. OTOH, I don't have temperature data for the other two. My bet is they also heat up and this is simply the best we can do with current battery technology.
     
  12. SintheticKarma

    SintheticKarma Senior Member Verified Member

    Jun 3, 2014
    Houston, TX, USA
    Most applications these batteries are designed for have active cooling or a combination of active and passive. With that in mind I can see how they find it acceptable. This being said we vapers aren't likely to find a worthwhile active and/or passive cooling solution for our mods. If there was a magic cooling solution for flashlight (mod) type setups, the flashlight modding community would already have it worked out. Without those guys we would all be in a very different vaping world right now.

    The way I see it is that we are all destined to be using parallel setups. It reduced drain on batteries (less heat, less wear), doubles the vape time (mah), and even allows for the chasers to have fun in that super sub-o zone more safely. Some of us really do ride these 18650's hard and while I do believe its reasonably safe to do so (when educated), everyone hates changing out batteries as often as that requires.

    Lets just bring on the carton mods... 2 banks of 8 parallel 18650's. Aww yeah! Vaping at 8.4 volts and 20 Ah baby!
     
  13. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    IMO if someone makes a battery, puts a 30A spec on it and doesn't say that only applies if it's cooled, then cooling is not included in the specification. I think a court would agree with this. Honestly, I think the amp draw specs are neither derived in an industry standard manner nor are hard numbers.

    Then again, we don't even know for sure which company is manufacturing these batteries :facepalm:. The only good part of this story is as long as they are IMR based safer chemistry batteries, no matter who makes them, they have never blown up in use.
     
  14. Cyrus Vap

    Cyrus Vap Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 8, 2011
    Bay Area, California
  15. rlockwich

    rlockwich Full Member

    Jul 13, 2014
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Speaking of mech mods. I take some pretty mean hits sometimes. pulsing probably like 3 hits at 10 seconds each or so. Is that what this means by continuous discharge?

    Or can somebody explain it to me in layman's terms?
     
  16. Cyrus Vap

    Cyrus Vap Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 8, 2011
    Bay Area, California
    I'm no expert but continuous discharge I think means, literally constant discharge. Your ten second draws are more like pulses. The pickle is, when a battery advertises that it can handle XX amps for pulse discharges, how long those pulses are isn't always clear. So for example if a certain battery is safe for 35 amps for pulse discharges of 6 seconds, then ten seconds is no longer a pulse but is more like continuous.

    That totally doesn't answer your question though, I know lol. In practical terms I would just use ohms law, some calculations, and common sense (don't approach limits of your battery, make sure the battery isn't getting hot, make sure your mod can vent, etc), and share for feedback.
     
  17. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
  18. Cyrus Vap

    Cyrus Vap Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 8, 2011
    Bay Area, California
    Me too, heat scares me a bit, in the battery and in other places. Another reason I won't allow myself to becoming accustomed to anything lower than .5ish ohms (duals so even cooler)...
     
  19. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    We think alike Cyrus. I also prefer dual coils at 0.4-0.5 ohms. I believe the chance of two 1 ohm coils degrading juice is significantly less than one 0.5 ohm coil because of the lower wattage per square inch of wire surface.

    Works for me :)
     
  20. Cyrus Vap

    Cyrus Vap Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 8, 2011
    Bay Area, California
    I agree 100%, significantly less for sure. It's not a hot vape and you don't need massive air unless you prefer it, flavors don't burn, unflavored (95% of my vaping) is crisp and clean, and plumes of vapor only a competitive cloud blower wouldn't be satisfied with. Great for 'sipping' and light drag vaping too. And batteries last longer than 5 minutes lol
     
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