Confirmed reason to look for safe batteries...

[NealBJr]

When you have a mod that's as hot as it was, you don't have time to think of making a particular mixture. I reacted to the problem and had it cooled down within 20 seconds. It happened in the dark, on my computer desk. No time to look for a pot. I think I did well under the circumstances.

And BTW, I removed the wrapping, and there's no bulges or disfiguration. I put it on the charger, and it did charge, and held a charge. I might want to MAKE it vent from a safe distance with the proper precautions and video tape it for reference. (outside of course, with extinguishers)

 

[beckdg]

When you have a mod that's as hot as it was, you don't have time to think of making a particular mixture. I reacted to the problem and had it cooled down within 20 seconds.

Exactly why water is relevant.

Better to be cool than nuclear.

Tapatyped

 

[tj99959]

Remember this next time you think battery safety is a joke!

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=d3e672b90d5364997878a6ea99809751&oe=55FA9E2A

Link only because of graphic nature of picture

 

[beckdg]

Remember this next time you think battery safety is a joke!

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=d3e672b90d5364997878a6ea99809751&oe=55FA9E2A

Link only because of graphic nature of picture

I find this post rather insulting to human intelligence.

Let alone actual intelligent humans.

You got some context to go with that picture?

How do I know that guy didn't take a bet to suck on a hot Soldering iron?

Tapatyped

 

[ian-field]

Thrasher" data-source="post: 15827229" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Please don't ever put a battery in this condition in fresh water.

Lithium will self ignite when exposed to fresh water, you could have made a relatively not to bad situation extremely worse.

The safest thing to do is take it outside and let it sit on the concrete or a brick or something.


You have no idea how lucky you really actually are this night, had the can cracked open it could have exploded in your face.

Apparently its pure metallic lithium that explodes on contact with water, and that (so I'm told) only forms on the internal electrodes when the cell is over charged.

While its not a great idea to chuck venting lithium cells in water, I think the biggest danger might be ending up with a caustic solution that can flay your skin.

 

[Thrasher]

Hey, if I'm wrong, cool so be it .
Just won't be me testing the theory though lol.


In almost all the YouTube videos the lithium they use has been removed from a battery. If it explodes outside the cell what's to stop if from exploding inside the cell?

 

[AndriaD]

Apparently its pure metallic lithium that explodes on contact with water, and that (so I'm told) only forms on the internal electrodes when the cell is over charged.

While its not a great idea to chuck venting lithium cells in water, I think the biggest danger might be ending up with a caustic solution that can flay your skin.

And if water is running over it, and thence into the drain... something that really should NEVER go into public water sources has just entered it.

Andria

 

[ian-field]

Hey, if I'm wrong, cool so be it .
Just won't be me testing the theory though lol.


In almost all the YouTube videos the lithium they use has been removed from a battery. If it explodes outside the cell what's to stop if from exploding inside the cell?

When a cell is venting, the escaping gasses prevent water getting in - by the time all the furious activity has subsided, most of the energy has been consumed. Or in other words; the pure metallic lithium has been converted to a less reactive compound.

If you chuck metallic sodium in water, it reacts violently and becomes sodium-hydroxide (the caustic soda used for cleaning drains) - if you leave that in an open vessel, it absorbs carbon dioxide from the air and becomes sodium carbonate (washing soda).

If you short a fully charged cell it rapidly overheats, that probably destroys the integrity of the internal structure and causes internal shorts - that's past the point of no return.

Just a guess - but probably venting very hot and vapourised lithium, it probably flames spontaneously as it hits the moisture in the air. Eventually the internal structure disintegrates and debris clogs the vents - if there's enough energy left, it can burst the steel casing.

 

[Baditude]

The only worry is if expansion and swelling does cause a crack, and your standing there staring at it.

People can do what they feel is best. But looking over my history at the dog track I don't really think chances are in my best interest lol

We're talking about safe chemistry (IMR and IMR/hybrid) batteries here. They shouldn't catch fire or "explode" like an ICR or Li-Po battery, but they can certainly vent hot gas and possibly expand/swell. If the battery swells in size, it can easily block the vent holes in the mod, resulting in a pipe bomb.

Above is our common AW IMR battery which vented outside of a mod. Imagine this happening in a mech mod without adequate venting.

 

[Thrasher]

And if the vent opens while submerged, the casing has now been compromised, allowing water to enter, should it react with the lithium, the small vent hole is not going be able to compensate for the amount of gas being released.

I was also here the day that aw photo was posted thanks, I still maintain the image was manipulated as according to even you this would indicate the safe chemistry and vent did not, in fact, do its job if the force was able to blow the whole top off even while venting and ejected the contents, ( which would in truth mean the battery did in fact explode, just not violently.) Also proving, if true, aw is no safer then any other brand ( if not manipulated)


Let's use logic for a minute here, think about this, the gas built up to a strong enough point to blow the top off which is crimped like a tuna can, yet somehow all that pressure wasn't strong enough to deform the rest of the cylinder?

 

[tj99959]

I find this post rather insulting to human intelligence.

Let alone actual intelligent humans.

You got some context to go with that picture?

How do I know that guy didn't take a bet to suck on a hot Soldering iron?

Tapatyped

Here's a screen shot of the facebook conversation.
I'm still trying to find out what PV & RDA he was using.
Seems like everyone around here that vapes actually knows the guy (I don't) His dad is/was stationed at Hill AFB.

 

[ian-field]

And if the vent opens while submerged, the casing has now been compromised, allowing water to enter, should it react with the lithium, the small vent hole is not going be able to compensate for the amount of gas being released.

I was also here the day that aw photo was posted thanks, I still maintain the image was manipulated as according to even you this would indicate the safe chemistry and vent did not, in fact, do its job if the force was able to blow the whole top off even while venting and ejected the contents, ( which would in truth mean the battery did in fact explode, just not violently.) Also proving, if true, aw is no safer then any other brand ( if not manipulated)

Rather like crumple zones in cars - some of the most successful designs have been arranged to minimise the impact of failure. But if the vents get clogged by debris - the pressure is likely to find some other way out.

Somewhere around the 40s or 50s, they figured out how to make more compact electrolytic capacitors for the electronics industry, unfortunately this increased the incidence of abused or faulty units building up a head of steam and bursting. Usually the seal would fail and the the aluminium can would be fired across the room like a bullet.

There were numerous cases of technicians being blinded by these projectiles, although I don't know of any figures for fatalities. It was only a few decades ago that they did something about this, now they stamp a crease in the top of the aluminium can to deliberately weaken it - now if they build up a head of steam, the crease splits and they just hiss for a few seconds.

There will no doubt be developments that make lithium cells safer, but the dangers that do exist have been wildly exaggerated. If a cell starts venting, chucking it in water isn't the smartest thing to do, you won't cool it down to any significant degree and any of the chemistry that does escape will react at least vigourously with the water.

Something that only really became noticable since there's all these lithium cells around - years ago, every fire point had at least one sand bucket, now I never see one, a bucket of sand is probably the best place to put a venting cell, and probably the safest way to carry it outside and put it somewhere it can't set light to anything.

 

[Mooch]

And if the vent opens while submerged, the casing has now been compromised, allowing water to enter, should it react with the lithium, the small vent hole is not going be able to compensate for the amount of gas being released.

I was also here the day that aw photo was posted thanks, I still maintain the image was manipulated as according to even you this would indicate the safe chemistry and vent did not, in fact, do its job if the force was able to blow the whole top off even while venting and ejected the contents, ( which would in truth mean the battery did in fact explode, just not violently.) Also proving, if true, aw is no safer then any other brand ( if not manipulated)


Let's use logic for a minute here, think about this, the gas built up to a strong enough point to blow the top off which is crimped like a tuna can, yet somehow all that pressure wasn't strong enough to deform the rest of the cylinder?

Interesting last point! But for the cyclinder to bulge a lot its length has to shorten a lot or the metal needs to stretch. The crimped top might give way before either of those two other things happen. As a cell manufacturer I would certainly want that to be the case.

[edit] just realized something....
If that jellyrolled (burst) cell was in a tube mod, I could see how the side support would prevent bulging and "encourage" the top coming off. [end edit]

While these cells do have vents, those vents do not guarantee that the cell will not burst or otherwise disassemble if the temperature goes high enough, fast enough. The thermal runaway temperature for the AW cells is higher than LiPo's, but once it's reached any chemistry can react hard enough to force the cell to burst. Even LiFePO4 (LFP). More than once, stress testing cells for a client, I have had A123 26650M1A cells "jellyroll" by bursting their tops and unrolling their contents in a huge pile of smoke/gas. No visible flame. It was not easy though, I had to do extended discharges of a 4S 26650 pack into a 0.09ohm load (about 150A). Was also able to do it by charging at 20A and 22V, also a worst case client test.

These are extreme examples, I admit. But it does demonstrate the different degrees of susceptibility to thermal runaway. LCO will be the worst, due to it having the lowest thermal runaway temperature. It also has the highest energy and reaction temperature IIRC. LCO/LMC hybrids are next, then LMC, and finally LFP as the "safest". But this is only due to different temperature thresholds. Once you exceed the threshold, they can all burst if the abuse is worse enough.

 

[ian-field]

Interesting last point! But for the cyclinder to bulge a lot its length has to shorten a lot or the metal needs to stretch. The crimped top might give way before either of those two other things happen. As a cell manufacturer I would certainly want that to be the case.

While these cells do have vents, those vents do not guarantee that the cell will not burst or otherwise disassemble if the temperature goes high enough, fast enough. The thermal runaway temperature for the AW cells is higher than LiPo's, but once it's reached any chemistry can react hard enough to force the cell to burst. Even LiFePO4 (LFP). More than once, stress testing cells for a client, I have had A123 26650M1A cells "jellyroll" by bursting their tops and unrolling their contents in a huge pile of smoke/gas. No visible flame. It was not easy though, I had to do extended discharges of a 4S 26650 pack into a 0.09ohm load (about 150A). Was also able to do it by charging at 20A and 22V, also a worst case client test.

These are extreme examples, I admit. But it does demonstrate the different degrees of susceptibility to thermal runaway. LCO will be the worst, due to it having the lowest thermal runaway temperature. It also has the highest energy and reaction temperature IIRC. LCO/LMC hybrids are next, then LMC, and finally LFP as the "safest". But this is only due to different temperature thresholds. Once you exceed the threshold, they can all burst if the abuse is worse enough.

A previous post about my DIY batteries was immediately moved to the "NOT ADVISABLE" section.

My experience so far suggests that the media has hyped up the dangers way out of all proportion, on one occasion I had a 510 thread carto into an ego battery coupling that I hadn't made such a neat job of the middle contact - the e-cig didn't do anything, and of course the shorted coupling welded the switch contacts, I immediately noticed the battery warming up in my hand and quickly unscrewed the coupling.

As an emergency repair I was able to lever the middle contact into the correct position, but couldn't do anything about the welded switch contacts. By only screwing the coupling together when I wanted to take a draw on it, there was just about enough energy left in the cell to get me home, where I could replace the switch and strip the ego fitting down and do it properly.

But I did retire that cell just to be on the safe side.

 

[beckdg]

Hey, if I'm wrong, cool so be it .
Just won't be me testing the theory though lol.


In almost all the YouTube videos the lithium they use has been removed from a battery. If it explodes outside the cell what's to stop if from exploding inside the cell?

One word...

Impervious

Gasses intrude much easier than liquids.

Oxygen is what the lithium is going to react to in water or atmospheric gas.

If it hasn't vented yet, it's safer to cool it quickly to minimize damage.

Oxygen in water is less likely to permeate the cell than atmospheric oxygen. Though an over heated cell is magnitudes more likely to vent than one that has been cooled.

If the cell isn't vented yet, water is a fantastic, fast way to cool it before it does.

Not cooling the cell is a much larger, more immediate risk.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Here's a screen shot of the facebook conversation.
I'm still trying to find out what PV & RDA he was using.
Seems like everyone around here that vapes actually knows the guy (I don't) His dad is/was stationed at Hill AFB.

55 ohms?

Anyway... I still don't see a relation to the pic in question.

Tapatyped

 

[AndriaD]

One word...

Impervious

Gasses intrude much easier than liquids.

Oxygen is what the lithium is going to react to in water or atmospheric gas.

If it hasn't vented yet, it's safer to cool it quickly to minimize damage.

Oxygen in water is less likely to permeate the cell than atmospheric oxygen. Though an over heated cell is magnitudes more likely to vent than one that has been cooled.

If the cell isn't vented yet, water is a fantastic, fast way to cool it before it does.

Not cooling the cell is a much larger, more immediate risk.

Tapatyped

Thx for this; it allows me to form a realistic plan for how to deal with any events like this that may occur. We do have a fire extinguisher rated for any household fire, but it's always better to forestall any situation BEFORE there is fire.

Andria

 

[beckdg]

Thx for this; it allows me to form a realistic plan for how to deal with any events like this that may occur. We do have a fire extinguisher rated for any household fire, but it's always better to forestall any situation BEFORE there is fire.

Andria

More than welcome.

I've been meaning to put a blog together on how to handle any and every battery situation. I just haven't had the time at home with my pc and other gear I'd like to use to help illustrate.

Unfortunately the e-cig community hasn't scratched the surface of lithium battery understanding.

Fortunately for me I've delved deeply and picked the minds of those who know intimately for several years before coming here.

One reason I despise battery university. So much to misunderstand. Some that can be debunked in a few minutes with the right equipment and the slightest understanding.

But it's so foreign to most, nearly everyone takes each word as gospel.

It's dangerous...

Tapatyped

 

[tj99959]

55 ohms?

Anyway... I still don't see a relation to the pic in question.

Tapatyped

No, .55 watts. He was just having a little trouble typing. There is just a space between the . and the 55.

And, quite frankly, I could give a flying ..... if you believe it or not!

Tad Jensen shared Nikki Boggs's post.





+2
Nikki Boggs added 7 new photos.
Our good friend Travis Nummerdor has asked us to help spread the word. A vapor smoker or, e-cig, exploded while he was using it

• 
  Tad Jensen shared Nikki Boggs's post.
  May 24 at 3:35pm ·
  Was he deep throating his mod or something?!
  
  
  Like · Comment · Share
  • Rich Smith, Murphy Lawrence and 5 others like this.
  • 
    Braxton KatisShouldnt an explosion go everywhere not just straight out?
    Like · Reply · May 24 at 3:42pm
  • 
    Eddie MockIf he was using the 4nine pictured then I can almost guarantee it was a hard short on the hybrid connection. People don't check their atty 510 pin to see if it protrudes from the ground to make sure they don't hard short. Smdh. Education in battery and mod safety is so important. Glad he appears to be alright though.
    Like · Reply · 3 · May 24 at 3:49pm
  • 
    Braxton KatisWell im just curious Eddie Mock... correct me but doesnt it look like it exploded out of the drip tip
    Like · Reply · May 24 at 3:54pm
  • 
    Brian WorthyI feel bad for the guy, but battery education is needed. People buy a clone and use the crappy battery that comes with it. Then their buddy builds a .15 ohm build on it and this is what happens. Shops need to really take this seriously, educate your cu...See More
    Like · Reply · 1 · May 24 at 3:55pm
  • 
    Eddie MockIt does, but no explosion is ever the same. Maybe the atty was the weakest connection point and holding the mod increased the stability so it had to go out the top? I don't know. It is odd though.
    Like · Reply · May 24 at 3:57pm
  • 
    Ben FitzAll valid but tell me this if it exploded into his mouth why are his teeth OK. Just seems strange to me
    Like · Reply · 3 · May 24 at 4:10pm
  • 
    Amy Bradshaw Layman^^his teeth aren't okay... The top two front teeth are clearly badly chipped if you look through all the photos.
    Like · Reply · May 24 at 4:14pm
    
    
    • Ledwina Dee Crocker replied · 5 Replies
  • 
    Ledwina Dee CrockerOn that same note, I have people come into MY shop with set ups they've bought elsewhere and they have been misinformed. So SOME vape shops are just as guilty of not educating their customers to avoid disasters like this that make people either afraid to vape, or yet ANOTHER reason to make this hobby look bad. Just sayin
    Like · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 9:34am
  • 
    Cole GrubbI agree, more to this storie for sure??..looking at the burn placement an such, why isnt his face scorched up from the blast and his hand for sure has to be fuc@ed up? I meen was the whole damn mod in his mouth??
    Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 11:04am

BTW, Tad Jensen is manager of the Electronitstix Murray UT store.

 

[beckdg]

No .55 watts. He was just having a little trouble typing. There is just a space between the . and the 55.

And, quite frankly, I could give a flying ..... if you believe it or not!

I don't disbelieve, either.
I have nothing that shows I should take either stance.

I would not expect you to take any other stance.

.55 watts? How? On a mech? I don't know of a regulated mod that would support that.

Tapatyped