Cumulative list of e-liquid additives?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by SaturnineDenial, Apr 3, 2011.

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  1. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I was wondering if there was a website or a place that lists all of the currently known e-liquid additives?
    I currently only know of the following:
    Sweeteners (sucralose, stevia)
    Menthyl methyl lactate (PA's Koolada)
    Ethyl Maltol
    Malic Acid (PA's Sour Mix)
    Q-Hit (Throat hit additive)
    Throat Hit +
    Diablo Loco (A DV flavor concentrate that adds TH due to SHU rating of 500,000)
    PGA (Added to thin VG or add throat hit)
    Menthol Crystals/Liquid
    Caffeine
    Herbal Extracts

    I was hoping that there was a more concise list that showed which vendors carried additives and the effects of the additives on e-liquid. I believe that new DIYers would benefit from a list of additives for eliquid. I gained my list solely from items that I've seen vendors carry during my purchases and I'm sure that there are more out there. For example, I know there are bitter agents and PH balancers available but I have no idea of possible vendors. Similar to the bubbly effect in colas. I've studied carbonation techniques, but I'm unsure if this is a safe thing to do to an e-liquid.
     
  2. hairball

    hairball ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Try liberty-flights.com for the bitter agents and PH balancers. They used to carry them. I believe that both are made by FlavourArt.
     
  3. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks hairball. :) I've got plenty of flavors but I am lacking all of the additives that I need to make things suitable to my tastes. I think I'll start checking all of the suppliers and flavor concentrate companies to see if there are any that I missed. I know that the standout flavors that I enjoy aren't created solely through adding flavors into a bottle.
     
  4. ByStander1

    ByStander1 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Excellent idea! Will need to be a sticky, too!!!
     
  5. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    If someone who knows more about this topic could create a sticky- that would be great! I know that questions about these additives pop up at least once a day (generally the throat hit ones). It would be nice to have an area to direct new members to and just a general area for new DIYers to find this information. Plenty of these additives exist, but they either aren't commonly known or it is difficult to find them.

    I've been searching for a way to make a bubbly sensation in e-liquid for a while now, but I'm aware that vendors don't like to give out that information. I've heard things like baking soda, cinnamon, and menthol are all used to create that effect. Though, I still wonder if carbonation would be effective on an e-liquid solution. There are small C02 dispensing machines that can be purchased and used at home. That may be my next step if I cannot find it on here.

    There also seem to be a lack of reviews/information about these additives. I've only seen caffeine offered by DV, Vapor Renu, and Joogler Juice. I know that the caffeine works and can be added in small enough doses so that it isn't a problem for e-liquid use.

    Of the throat hit additives, PGA seems to work occasionally (does not have much of an effect on cheesecake and other light TH vapes).. Qhit requires a large amount in the final solution to be effective, and Throat Hit + receives mixed reviews.

    All of these additives can be just as important as flavors to a DIYer. Finding all of the information needed in one place would be very useful.
     
  6. ByStander1

    ByStander1 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Just FYI: PA's Champagne is great at this!
     
  7. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    What percentage is recommended? I know I use about a 1% to 2% percentage of Diablo Loco to add TH to juices without changing the flavor. :) Or is the Champagne such a mild flavor that it wouldn't matter?
     
  8. ByStander1

    ByStander1 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    It really doesn't matter. The "flavor" is very mild, so it may be just what you want. At 20%, still not a lot of impact on flavors, but the effect increases.

    Hope this helps!
     
  9. ncvaping

    ncvaping Reviewer / Blogger ECF Veteran

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    I am going to keep an eye on this thread and post the results to the e liquid recipe book as a separate page title additives. I will start with the ones you have already list SaturnineDenial and add to them as they are posted. Great idea for all of us DIY'ers out there.
     
  10. Stosh

    Stosh Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Besides PGA (Added to thin VG or add throat hit) , add in Vodka, 50/50 PGA and distilled water, thins VG without affecting the TH nearly as much. Works well for fruit or chocolate where you don't want to increase the TH.
     
  11. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    NcVaping,
    That is a great idea! I look forward to seeing the additives on the site. :)

    Stosh,
    That is a nice alternative to the PGA. Would you say that the vodka adds a less harsh flavor undertone then the PGA? After mixing with PGA, occasionally the liquid will smell like alcohol for a few days.
    Another use for alcohol is to thin the oils (such as cinnamon oil) that are used in recipes. I know that there is a debate about oils in another thread, but I know many people who've used oils for years without any ill effect. In fact, one of the most well known vendors around here has been using oils for a while and there are no reported ill effects of his customers.
     
  12. Stosh

    Stosh Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Vodka is nothing more than a mix of water and PGA, as many recipes have a little PGA or water to assist in dissolving different crystals or oils that are not as PG soluble, it's a way of aiding the solution without adding a PGA TH.
     
  13. aprioristic

    aprioristic Moved On

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    No it doesn't make a bubbly sensation... I got it in my head that something like that was possible from reading the description of Blue Mist's Cola, but I talked to the owner of BM and it doesn't actually make any fizzy mouthfeel. I also asked Linda from PA if she knew of anything like that which could be possible and she didn't know of anything.

    I like PA champagne mixed with other things but I wouldn't even say it tastes like champagne. It has some amount of alcohol and is like a general mellow booze flavor. It's slightly like white wine and no way is it fizzy.

    Flavor Art has bitter wizard, but IDK if I would call that a pH balancer and I have no clue what that really is. Malic acid was a complete bust for me even though I saw people claiming it worked. There's AAA Magic mask and then MTS Vape Wizard, which I've had no luck with whatsoever. I think a lot of these places just make misleading claims. A single drop of MTS in any small 3-6ml test batch will ruin the flavor and I can't say I notice any increase in vapor production.

    Even if it is unsafe, how do you think you could make carbonated ejuice? Pop Rocks work because the bubbles are trapped in a solid. We're dealing with a liquid being heated and vaporized. I don't see how anything able to hold a gas would survive that process. There are other irritant additives besides capsaicin and other cooling agents besides Koolada. Supposedly carbonation triggers the same pain receptors as mustard along with a sour effect. I think it might be possible to roughly simulate carbonation with a combination of other additives but it seems very hard. Look through this and you might find some clues:

    Oxford Journals | Life Sciences & Medicine | Chemical Senses
     
  14. ByStander1

    ByStander1 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    So you don't find the rootbeer and colas "fizzy" vapes? "Fizzy" seems like a good description of the effect. Guess I'm mistaken in what the OP was looking for. To me, the champagne is a similar effect to a cola without much of any flavor.


    Was disappointed in the huge change the MTS made in a whole series of mixes I added a single drop to... Until Day 2: Some of the tobaccos were changed significantly in a way I didn't care for; however, someone else tried it and loved the results; there were other flavors that it did amazingly wonderful things to, and I add it every time to those recipies. This is definitely an additive I turn to if I'm just "not getting there" with a mixture.
     
  15. aprioristic

    aprioristic Moved On

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    What effect are you describing? To me champagne adds some throat hit but nothing at all I would consider fizzy, like little bubbles popping in my mouth. I haven't tried root beer but maybe something about the flavor is reminiscent of soda, I just don't see how a real "fizzy" is possible, especially from champagne. The sort of dry harshness of alcohol might be part of the equation but I think you would need other special additives to get a genuine fizzy.

    I'm curious what specifically you had success with MTS too. I guess I just hadn't used it that much because I don't really have "problem mixes" so often and the few times I used it, it just muted all the flavors. I can see it being helpful to flavor in some cases, just not how it would ever add to vapor production.
     
  16. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    It's difficult to really describe. Some of the cola flavored liquids taste like flat RC cola. (You can experience this in DIY by just using perfumer's cola flavor). Though, Tasty Vapor's Cherry Cola and Decadent Vapor's Kola Kick both have a light bubbly sensation on the tongue. I assume that the "mouth feel" from TV might be related to the cinnamon that is normally added to a cola as the cola vapes are generally described as warm. I have TV's Cherry Cola and TV's Banana Nut Bread on two seperate PVs with dedicated atties right now. The BNB has a taste but absolutely no sensation or TH. The Cherry Cola, regardless of nic mg, produces a sensation on the tongue.

    The same goes for the Kola Kick, which I just ordered a bunch of the concentrate for so that I could enjoy the sensation. It might just be cinnamon because all of the mountain dew and sprite type e-liquids I've tried have tasted like flat soda. I vape Atomic Cinnacide often as well, but it gives off a more harsh TH and mouth sensation than the colas. Which is why I would compare the sensation given off by the colas to be similar to carbonation. I realize that you're right about the heat of the coils, even if you could carbonate e-liquid using a c02 tank... the c02 would be gone before it could produce a sensation.
     
  17. SaturnineDenial

    SaturnineDenial Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I'm reading the articles and I will probably play around with my additives when they get here. I'm thinking that a multitude of them might give the effect, or even a low percentage of cinnamon oil. Cinnamon is an ingredient in colas themselves and is responsible for some of the flavor that we enjoy. Perhaps the difference between a flat tasting e-liquid beverage and a normal flavored e liquid beverage is only cinnamon. If that is true, then maybe the sensation is created by the brain recognizing the taste and confusing the cinnamon tingle with c02 bubbles.

    Though, to get a more direct bubbly effect without relying solely on cinnamon... I will read the article. The chemical senses information you provided will be invaluable to my DIY quest. I was considering self flavor extraction, but I do not have the time to invest or the money to invest in the equipment that I would need.
     
  18. Papa Lazarou

    Papa Lazarou Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    The Kola Kick contains caffeine which certainly affects the flavour (and it's not very soluble in PG), although I'm not sure if that would affect the impression of fizzyness.

    I've got a few of the FA additives now - MTS Vape Wizard, Bitter Wizard, and something else which I'm not sure what it is now (labelled as MTS, but could well be the AAA Magic Mask). The Bitter Wizard is extremely strong stuff, it must contain quite a powerful bittering agent, and you can easily ruin a mix with it. Very tiny amounts can add a pleasant bitterness if that is what you are looking for. The MTS Vape Wizard I am still getting to grips with, but with really strong pungent flavours like Perique Black it certainly takes the edge off somewhat (and with that particular flavour I find that a good thing!).
     
  19. aprioristic

    aprioristic Moved On

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    Yup, this is somewhat true. Compare the more drastic change in flavor when you let something like Sprite go flat with the less drastic change in Coke. Not that this is relevant but I just tried Boylan's Root Beer for the first time this weekend and it had a pretty strong cinnamon finish to it that surprised me.. I didn't let it go flat though. The cinnamon in something like Coke is so subtle as to be imperceptible so to whatever degree it is helpful, like you said you have to balance with getting a cinnamon flavor.

    The main difference though is not having the bubbles. Maybe you can use a small amount of cinnamon effectively, same as you can use menthol without really interfering with flavor. So, I am going to take you guys seriously that you get a fizzy sort of sensation from these flavors and also assume that it isn't that intense. I'm kind of skeptical about this but eventually I will get around to trying them.

    If it is activating the right sensors on the tongue there are two things we could do:

    - There's a certain class of chemicals that potentiates this response. I'm wary of even mentioning the names of these though because they all happen to be prescription drugs as well. These are supposedly part of a larger group but I am having a hard time figuring out what those really are, so maybe in the future.

    - Some combination of flavors that will elicit the same response. You have the same problem here with stuff like throat hit or WTA extracts that to do a really good job you need to find something which doesn't otherwise have much taste. Since the owner of BlueMist told me his cola wasn't really fizzy I thought this was a lost cause, but looking into it more and hearing what you all have said I think it is possible.

    In that journal you will find a lot of studies on cross- and asymmetric desensitization. Things like smoking for years or eating spicy foods a lot can cause permanent changes in our senses, so it is going to be hard to gauge individual responses. I found an interesting point in one article which is also sort of a good overview for the type of jargon to expect in that journal.

    If there is already some combination of flavors working in a cola flavor, one could probably just exaggerate that. I think we can come up with a better way to simulate it though. I just ordered Diablo Loco and I have some other chems I got to work on zero nic throat hit that are probably even better than capsaicin for a similar type of stinging sensation we get from fizzy drinks.

    The hard part to me is sourness. Maybe it is because I still inhale like for an analog when I vape, vs. mouth inhaling, but malic acid was no good for me. I think it actually might have given me some difficulty breathing, which seems possible from various toxicology reports I looked at.

    PA is now selling this stuff... has anyone tried malic acid? Someone here claimed it worked and I bought some. Even above the suggested concentration I got barely any sour taste but plenty of negative effects. Maybe the citric/malic blend Lorann sells or just some other sort of acid will work, but IDK if I want to even mess with these. I have a number of ideas how to do the soda flavors better if I just get the sour part down.

    I think there could be some novel ingredients that work on the individual chemical pathways. Needing something near tastless, cheap and safe to inhale just makes it extra hard. FA responded about diacetyl but hardly pulled it from the supply chain. I don't like not knowing what is really in stuff like Bitter Wizard, so I am largely writing it off. Acids, whether malic, citric, or phosphoric are a key ingredient in any soda so I would be interested to hear from people who try these. Ideally we would find something that targeted the sour receptors without lowering pH too much.
     
  20. amrnation

    amrnation Moved On

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    my version of cola with fizzy taste

    Try cinnamin red hots at 1-2 drops per 5mil

    use a combination of cola's too

    I tend to find that FA's cola is more pepsi

    while PA is more traditional cola

    and Lorann's cola is more well generic brand cola if that makes since.

    I tend to do at a 15% recipe

    5% loranns 5% FA 5% PA with 1-2 drops of Cinnimon red hots per 5mil depending on how much of a kick I want.

    The red hots really give that kick i mean knocks you out with exhale after awhile :D
     
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